Why Must Children Suffer?
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13-08-2013, 02:13 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(13-08-2013 02:02 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Well shit, by that logic a teenager could flunk a test in high school and just say, but I'll get straight A's in heaven when I die so let's just make up whatever bullshit makes us happy. Fuck you mom, fuck you teacher…I’m a straight A student in heaven!

Death is a stark and inevitable reality of life. But hey let's all just pretend we don't actually die and everything will be perfect. Isn't that better then dying? Pretending everything is perfect? Of course it is so let's all just pretend we live forever because pretending is better than reality and there for makes it somehow real! Problem solved…

I also want to own a unicorn and have a baby pet dragon while I'm at it! It would be way better to have a unicorn and a baby pet dragon than to not have them so that might as well be real too! And now it is, just because I want to pretend it is, because that's shapes reality.

Naturalist: I hear what you're saying, PJ, about being in Heaven for thousands of years, but Paul was wrong, as that hope and expectation in no way diminishes the reality of this present suffering. As a matter of fact, I also complain about studying for tests, working on a relationship before proposing, lifting weights and doing aerobics to stay healthy, and eating right for years to stave off my inevitable death. God has screwed up here, clearly nothing is worth suffering for, or waiting for, or dying to gain. It is utterly and patently unfair to make a child be sick or feel pain for even five minutes just because the afterlife is better than this. Further, although I am an Atheist and do not believe in the supernatural, although I am an admitted Darwinist, I'm also going to throw aside all that we've discussed so far about the necessity of suffering to register these complaints. Would you pass them on to your God for me, please?

Christian: I disagree.

Or third option:
"God" is not fucking real, and you are living in a fantasy world.
And you are making arguments about things that are not real and using things that are not real to "support" your argument for the things that are not real.

...
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13-08-2013, 02:15 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:But isn't it better for the child in the woods to have an adult hiding in a tree who he can't find, and who could completely heal the child, but doesn't because he wants that child to appreciate that fact that he will help him decades from now when it won't even matter anymore?

And besides, what does the child expect? Forty years, before the child was even born, his uncle was asked by the guy hiding in the tree to not use his coffee mug, but he did anyway. So now obviously that child should suffer 2nd degree burns and smoke inhalation damage to his lungs. Where would the justice be if he didn’t? I mean the boy’s uncle used the guys coffee mug, the boy needed to burn.

Naturalist: Look, I made an analogy that shows the folly of the Christian religious tenets. I bet I'm the first person to do so ever on this forum.

Christian: Stick to the point. What does your analogy have to do with the necessity of a child hurting their hand when they touch a stove? And will you admit pain is a must in Evolution and stop pushing pain as if it is a unique problem for the religious and the spiritual?
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13-08-2013, 02:17 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:I am not even going to skim through this thread. Let me answer the title of this thread instead.

"Why must children suffer?"

Because that's life.

Naturalist: PJ did make a careful and well-thought out analogy (I presume, since I'm too busy to actually read the man's opinion). Let's redact it all to "Life sucks. 42. What are you gonna do about it?"

Christian: Redeem it.
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13-08-2013, 02:20 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:You are about as subtle as a one-legged pink elephant.

Naturalist: Death is unavoidable, but life is an incredible gift. I'll make the most of mine. I'm thankful to be here.

Christian: Death scares the crap out of me. I can't imagine not existing even though I didn't exist at all up until this century. Heaven heaven heaven heaven heaven heaven...

Naturalist: I affirm that life is an incredible gift. Not that I have empirical evidence for that. After all, children shouldn't feel pain or suffer, yet they do. Hey, this may not be an incredible gift. Maybe I should retract that last bit. Also, I'll spin PJ's attempt to ascribe meaning to suffering to a reminder that he is Heaven-obsessed.

Christian: I think about Heaven seldomly, as do most born again Christians. But as I tell those I witness to, I'm not discussing these things with you so I can go to Heaven, but I'd love for you to join me there. I'm going to Heaven no matter what happens. Therefore, suffering has a context. Death has a context. Life has a context.
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13-08-2013, 02:24 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:"God" is not fucking real, and you are living in a fantasy world.
And you are making arguments about things that are not real and using things that are not real to "support" your argument for the things that are not real.

Not at all. I made an argument that Atheists should be consistent:

Either suffering is a purpose for Evolutionary advancement and opportunity/survivability and therefore, Atheists should stop using this canard on Christians in arguments

OR

Suffering makes more sense in the context of the creator/judge and Atheists should self-identify consistently as Agnostics

Really, you are making the argument for me, especially with your last post.

Naturalist: PJ, you are using your imagination and imagined analogies to probe for a non-real being outside our present time and space!

Christian: Oh my, I better stop thinking out of your box.
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13-08-2013, 02:25 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(13-08-2013 02:20 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:You are about as subtle as a one-legged pink elephant.

Naturalist: Death is unavoidable, but life is an incredible gift. I'll make the most of mine. I'm thankful to be here.

Christian: Death scares the crap out of me. I can't imagine not existing even though I didn't exist at all up until this century. Heaven heaven heaven heaven heaven heaven...

Naturalist: I affirm that life is an incredible gift. Not that I have empirical evidence for that. After all, children shouldn't feel pain or suffer, yet they do. Hey, this may not be an incredible gift. Maybe I should retract that last bit. Also, I'll spin PJ's attempt to ascribe meaning to suffering to a reminder that he is Heaven-obsessed.

Christian: I think about Heaven seldomly, as do most born again Christians. But as I tell those I witness to, I'm not discussing these things with you so I can go to Heaven, but I'd love for you to join me there. I'm going to Heaven no matter what happens. Therefore, suffering has a context. Death has a context. Life has a context.

That feel when people over think life. Drinking Beverage
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13-08-2013, 02:31 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(13-08-2013 02:20 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Naturalist: I affirm that life is an incredible gift. Not that I have empirical evidence for that. After all, children shouldn't feel pain or suffer, yet they do. Hey, this may not be an incredible gift. Maybe I should retract that last bit. Also, I'll spin PJ's attempt to ascribe meaning to suffering to a reminder that he is Heaven-obsessed.

Christian: I think about Heaven seldomly, as do most born again Christians. But as I tell those I witness to, I'm not discussing these things with you so I can go to Heaven, but I'd love for you to join me there. I'm going to Heaven no matter what happens. Therefore, suffering has a context. Death has a context. Life has a context.

Naturalist: I have empirical evidence for the incredible gift that is life. The odds of being alive are astronomically small based on the lack of life we observe in our universe, as well as the knowledge that we were the lucky sperm that found the egg first. Not all of us are lucky enough to have a great life, but by your reasoning, not all of us will go to heaven. At least in my world, the suffering ends at death. PJ consistently uses eternal heaven as a way to show how relatively short suffering on Earth is. He must have forgotten that other people can use a forum search function to look up previous posts of his. No spin required!

Christian: I mention heaven constantly. I cannot accept life without some sort of context or purpose. Eternal life through belief in Jesus is a core tenet of my religion. In fact, the sole purpose of my religion is salvation and the afterlife. After all, if there were no afterlife, I'd be in the same situation as the atheists. Oops!!!

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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13-08-2013, 02:48 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Quote:Not at all. I made an argument that Atheists should be consistent

Sorry, we don't all have the same book to follow. We all read and interpret our sources differently. And there isn't anything saying that we should read and interpret them the same way.

As atheists, all we have in common is one thing: we don't believe that god exists.
And that's all you need to be an atheist. Everything else is just your interpretation of the evidence.

Banned from ChristianChat.com for "Spreading Disbelief"
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13-08-2013, 02:54 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Christian: I don't know what I'm talking about, and am wrong on everything I say, and you are right and I am wrong. I give up because I now realize how wrong I am.

Realist: Wow, that was easier than I thought. All we have to do is make up our own version of reality, including the context of conversations with people, and what our opponents say, and that makes what I say reality just because I pretend it's true. Awesome!

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13-08-2013, 03:11 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(13-08-2013 02:11 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Two children come running out of a burning house. Both have harsh 2nd degree burns and smoke inhalation damage to their lungs.
They are frightened and confused running as fast as they can.

One runs north into the woods and the other runs south toward a nearby farm house.
At the house, the child is met by two caring adults who phone for help and try to tend to the child's wounds as best as they can to help reduce the suffering and help reduce the pain.

The child in the woods is in a great deal of pain, crying and hurting. This child is lost and alone and is now growing cold from the weather.
This child is suffering because there are no caring beings who are aware of this child's suffering.
If any human was aware of it, they would take steps to reduce that suffering and help the child as much as possible.

Children don't have to suffer when there are beings who are aware of the suffering and who are able to reduce the suffering.
There are times that we as human beings cannot stop the pain. We try our best to make a child as comfortable and painless as possible when they are suffering but with some cases, there isn't much we can do.

When someone invents a god who is all knowing, all powerful and all loving, then if that god exists, there should be NO suffering
because that being would a) be aware of the suffering b) have the ability to reduce the suffering and c) actually gives a damn if someone is suffering.

So in many peoples minds, anyone's suffering, let alone a child's suffering means that no such being, we call god, exists.

You are absolutely, positively correct IMO. With one caveat, in this sort of example, it is always stated that God is perfectly loving, while never stated that God is perfectly just. If I deserve Hell for my sin, why do I any less deserve a cold, influenza or AIDS?

Now, we can go off on a tangent about whether children sin or not. Or whether we deserve to live in a chaotic universe because of the Adamic fall. But I'd rather we stay on point.

Naturalist: Come to think of it, I really don't have a good reason why children should suffer, since I hate such suffering. I think Evolution screwed up here. Oh wait, let's blame it on a capricious God--if such exists.

Christian: Are you sure?

Thank you for saying that in your opinion, I'm correct.
That actually means a great deal to hear you say that you agree that a caring being, if able, would help to reduce the suffering of a child if it is aware of the suffering.

Justice and suffering have nothing to do with one another.
Psychopathic Vengeance are the words you are looking for
(Infliction of extreme punishment in return for a wrong committed)

Unless you want to call your god psychopathic and vengeful, which I think your bible describes him as such a being, then I could imagine that if a god did exist that it must have these characteristics because that is the only worldview that works when we look at all the suffering in the world.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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