Why Must Children Suffer?
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13-08-2013, 04:29 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
At the risk of offending many I find this quite fascinating. PJ has written so much crap here that he has been more than offensive on occasion. In this tread he has made reasonable, sort of, arguments. All based on his self centered interpretation of god, but reasonable.

I am forced into one comment, self centered is an operative word when dealing with christians. They make up what the bible tells them and then suggest that is the true word of god. They can even find quotes that support their hypothesis. It should but does not give them pause.

I will now withdraw, carry on.
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13-08-2013, 04:38 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
He's sees reasoned arguments made every day. It's no wonder some of it is rubbing off on him Big Grin

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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13-08-2013, 05:34 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Is experiencing pain the same as experiencing suffering, or am I being pedantic?

There is no "I" in "team" but there is a broken and mixed up "me."
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13-08-2013, 05:44 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(13-08-2013 09:41 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I’m genuinely interested in your thoughts touching my line of reasoning...

“Children having pain” is a frequently heard objection to the Christian God or indeed, there being any God at all. Is this a valid objection? I’d like to start from the naturalist’s perspective to free myself from assumptions.

Pain, whether physical or emotional, is a conditioned evolutionary response to stimulus. It is helpful and enhances survivability. Rotten foods produce loathing when smelled or consumed. A child who touches a hot stove to satisfy curiosity should feel pain and that as quickly as possible so that they will not linger touching the stove--so a first-degree burn does not become a second- or third-degree burn. The memory of this pain of burning will never be as strong as the actual event which triggers autonomic response, but the trace memory will help the child to not burn themselves once again.

Emotional pain is also a helpful conditioned stimulus, e.g. incest guilt helps keep families from pursuing incest and destroying their relationships emotionally, and a lack of incest helps maintain a diverse gene pool in play among the human species.

In other words, pain is a necessity to help children survive to adulthood, whether the pain of the children themselves or those who must experience guilt pangs when they try to hurt children. From a naturalist’s perspective, wanting children to not experience pain or suffering is actually an immature or neurotic response, although it is prompted by human compassion.

Therefore, saying “God ought to prevent the suffering of children” is asking for a supernatural intervention which breaks several natural laws:

*perhaps the event never occurs (which may necessitate abrogating someone’s free will, if free will exists)

*perhaps the experience is held supernaturally without pain (and the child continues to touch the stove and sear and scar their flesh because there is no pain felt)

*no benefit is gained from pain caused by eustress-inducing events (the child does not know it is benefiting from exercise or learning, there is no gain and no attendant pain)

This style of action would make a God spurious (miracles would now be used hurt and not help the recipient), a poor parental model (go ahead, kid, stick your face on the stove and sear it), and also determinist and unfair (a potential child abuser would have their free will removed but a child would still have free will).

I still arrive at my earlier assumption. The person who uses the suffering of children as an anti-God objection must therefore be:

1. Not understanding the meaning and purposes of suffering or else not wanting to understand them

2. Judging God by arbitrary and indulgent choices (“I say pain is bad even though it was created or evolved for protection.”)

3. Etc.

Please tell me where you find my line of reasoning illogical or can add clarification.

Thanks sincerely, PJ.
If God can create a pain-free heaven without diminishing free will, then he/she/it could certainly do the same here on Earth for children or anyone else.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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13-08-2013, 06:01 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(13-08-2013 05:44 PM)Impulse Wrote:  If God can create a pain-free heaven without diminishing free will, then he/she/it could certainly do the same here on Earth for children or anyone else.

I don't think there is any free will in heaven. But that's just my opinion.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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13-08-2013, 06:11 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(13-08-2013 06:01 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(13-08-2013 05:44 PM)Impulse Wrote:  If God can create a pain-free heaven without diminishing free will, then he/she/it could certainly do the same here on Earth for children or anyone else.

I don't think there is any free will in heaven. But that's just my opinion.
I don't believe in heaven at all, but I know neither do you. Tongue

But I do think most Christians who believe in heaven imagine it to be perfect bliss. I don't see how perfect bliss is possible if there is no free will. So I also find it to be a logical contradiction if Christians believe there is no free will in heaven.

When I was a Christian, the thought process was "you have free will so you could still sin, but you wouldn't do so because you would finally understand so much more and the mere experience of heaven would overwhelm you such that you would not ever want to sin."

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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13-08-2013, 06:19 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(13-08-2013 06:11 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(13-08-2013 06:01 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I don't think there is any free will in heaven. But that's just my opinion.
I don't believe in heaven at all, but I know neither do you. Tongue

But I do think most Christians who believe in heaven imagine it to be perfect bliss. I don't see how perfect bliss is possible if there is no free will. So I also find it to be a logical contradiction if Christians believe there is no free will in heaven.

When I was a Christian, the thought process was "you have free will so you could still sin, but you wouldn't do so because you would finally understand so much more and the mere experience of heaven would overwhelm you such that you would not ever want to sin."

That's basically what I was told. However, can anyone really have freewill if you haven't any urges to be naughty??


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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13-08-2013, 06:40 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
Momsurroundedbyboys, will you be available in my pool hall in heaven. I will buy the beer.
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13-08-2013, 06:40 PM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(13-08-2013 06:19 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(13-08-2013 06:11 PM)Impulse Wrote:  I don't believe in heaven at all, but I know neither do you. Tongue

But I do think most Christians who believe in heaven imagine it to be perfect bliss. I don't see how perfect bliss is possible if there is no free will. So I also find it to be a logical contradiction if Christians believe there is no free will in heaven.

When I was a Christian, the thought process was "you have free will so you could still sin, but you wouldn't do so because you would finally understand so much more and the mere experience of heaven would overwhelm you such that you would not ever want to sin."

That's basically what I was told. However, can anyone really have freewill if you haven't any urges to be naughty??

I think they think that heaven will just be so perfect that no one will every want to be "naughty" or any other sins, because it's just so insanely perfect and satisfying. So they still have free will, but will be in such a state of bliss they will never have need or have a desire to act on sin.

But again, if that is possible, then why not just start with that, making Earth 1.0 perfect the first time and with or without free will we wouldn't want to sin.

We're on Earth 2.0 right now and we still have to upgrade to a whole new operating system?! When will God finally get it right. That's why I always wait to upgrade until I know they've gotten all the bugs out first.

Not that any of that is real though of course...

...
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14-08-2013, 06:10 AM
RE: Why Must Children Suffer?
(13-08-2013 12:56 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:When I talk about suffering I am referring to the many, many infants and young children who do not survive to adulthood due to genetic flaws and incurable diseases. Touching a hot stove does indeed teach you a valuable lesson. Dying a slow painful death at the age of five does not. Dying immediately after you're born does not. These deaths make sense in a world subject to the simple and uncaring rules of nature. They do not make sense when you try to find a way for them to coexist with a world created by a loving creator.

Naturalist: So? Death is a part of life, those with genetic flaws and incurable diseases are supposed to die before reproduction. This is a helpful mechanism.

Christian: The five-year-old who goes to Heaven for 1,000,000 years of joyful life will account the suffering and sickness as lightweight:

2 Cor 4: "For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal."

1. if god is good it would have made us free of genetic flaws to prevent pointless suffering
2. heaven is a place without suffering and if you went though pain and became stronger in yourlife, you will find out that all the pain you suffered is pointless as there is no need to be stronger in heaven.
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