Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
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28-07-2013, 04:38 PM
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
(28-07-2013 04:10 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Ok, so lets drop all the fights against human trafficking for prostitution, lets drop all the family violence and violence against women, lets drop all the education efforts that try to reduce the risk of men becoming sex abusers, lets keep portraying women as bodies only meant for male sexual arousal and cleaning products consumers. Lets abandon the political debate on freedom of choice on women's own bodies...
All those problems are human rights problems yes, but not only that, they're human rights problems that arise from a discrimination against women.
Extremists are everywhere, even in atheism we have crazy people who want to go burn churches.
There's also a branch of feminism, called masculinism, is movement of men who did they reading and studying instead of just bitch about crazy women who want privileges, and they started to realize that sexism also affect men. Suicide rates, neurotic meltdowns, family abandonment, and a lot other stuff are far more frequent in men than in women, and this movements realized that in a big part those problems came from treating men in our societies as obligated to provide economic support and to be emotionally "strong" and sexually powerful.

When they can't live up to the expectations of a perfect men (a handful of men in the world can try to do that) they just collapse, thy loose their jobs, they kill themselves because they're not men enough. they can't keep up with the emotional requirements of having a family, or simply they can't keep an erection because their dicks should be bigger.
So sexism not only affect women, and feminism knows that, not the extreme stupid fundamentalist feminists, but those are a minority. Of course you wouldn't know they are because nobody cares to actually read a book about it.

If I wanted to read garbage, I would go in the garbage and read what is in there.

Quote:Ok, so lets drop all the fights against human trafficking for prostitution, lets drop all the family violence and violence against women, lets drop all the education efforts that try to reduce the risk of men becoming sex abusers, lets keep portraying women as bodies only meant for male sexual arousal and cleaning products consumers. Lets abandon the political debate on freedom of choice on women's own bodies...
Everything you just listed can go both ways buddy. Both genders can be trafficked, both can be beaten, both can be sex abusers, both can be meant for sexual arousal, both can advocate women's choice. All I hear from you is sexist bullshit that says that men are the only ones doing these things, and fuck that. Women are just as much of monsters as men are, and the sooner you get that through your head is when we can have actual "human rights."
Quote:lets keep portraying women as bodies only meant for male sexual arousal and cleaning products consumers.

Really sounding like one of those "extremists" right now..... Every man, in fact probably most, don't portray women sexually or think they are only meant for birth and cleaning. You seem to think that we all do this but we don't, and the ones that do are idiots, you don't have to actively hunt them down for having an opinion.
Quote:There's also a branch of feminism, called masculinism, is movement of men who did they reading and studying instead of just bitch about crazy women who want privileges, and they started to realize that sexism also affect men.
I don't know where you got this from, but I don't think you could have been any more wrong. Read this page: http://books.google.com/books?id=Ldbxabe...&q&f=false Where in there does it suggest alliance with feminism? In fact, it is the entity that opposes it. This is the kind of thing I was talking about when I said that the two sides would never stop fighting until they became unified.
Quote:Extremists are everywhere, even in atheism we have crazy people who want to go burn churches.
Would classify you as one. Do you agree with anything on this list? http://michaelurbina.com/101-everyday-wa...-to-women/
Quote:So sexism not only affect women, and feminism knows that, not the extreme stupid fundamentalist feminists, but those are a minority. Of course you wouldn't know they are because nobody cares to actually read a book about it.
It really sounds like you want to regulate how men see women and how they talk about them. Also, you don't seem to understand that the issues you list go both ways, because if you did you would be a humanist like me and not a feminist. And again, fuck your books, the premise is idiotic to begin with.

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28-07-2013, 04:48 PM
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
Clearly you don't believe you could possibly be wrong, so there's no debate here... You bored me

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28-07-2013, 04:51 PM
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
(28-07-2013 04:48 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Clearly you don't believe you could possibly be wrong, so there's no debate here... You bored me

The facts can't be wrong......and there is a debate but way to concede your entire argument, I'm thinking I won this one.

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28-07-2013, 04:54 PM
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
(28-07-2013 04:17 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 01:28 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I will never refer to myself as a feminist. I will always refer myself as a humanist.

You can be a feminist and a misandrynist. You can be a feminist and a racist. Feminism only is one aspect of you, humanist covers feminism and more.

No, but there is nothing wrong with a person referring to themselves as one. They could very well be a humanist, but they are addressing the specific topic of gender equality (or the lack thereof in the United States) at that point in time. A feminist will say they are a feminist, but that should not mean that feminism is all they believe. We call ourselves atheists, but does not define us in our entirety.

I never said there is anything wrong with calling yourself a feminist. All I was saying is that humanist is a title that encompasses a much wider area of issues.

If you call yourself a feminist, I only really know one aspect of your opinions on human rights. If you call yourself a humanist, I have a rough opinion on what you believe in all aspects of human rights.

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28-07-2013, 05:12 PM
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
(28-07-2013 04:38 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 04:10 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Ok, so lets drop all the fights against human trafficking for prostitution, lets drop all the family violence and violence against women, lets drop all the education efforts that try to reduce the risk of men becoming sex abusers, lets keep portraying women as bodies only meant for male sexual arousal and cleaning products consumers. Lets abandon the political debate on freedom of choice on women's own bodies...
All those problems are human rights problems yes, but not only that, they're human rights problems that arise from a discrimination against women.
Extremists are everywhere, even in atheism we have crazy people who want to go burn churches.
There's also a branch of feminism, called masculinism, is movement of men who did they reading and studying instead of just bitch about crazy women who want privileges, and they started to realize that sexism also affect men. Suicide rates, neurotic meltdowns, family abandonment, and a lot other stuff are far more frequent in men than in women, and this movements realized that in a big part those problems came from treating men in our societies as obligated to provide economic support and to be emotionally "strong" and sexually powerful.

When they can't live up to the expectations of a perfect men (a handful of men in the world can try to do that) they just collapse, thy loose their jobs, they kill themselves because they're not men enough. they can't keep up with the emotional requirements of having a family, or simply they can't keep an erection because their dicks should be bigger.
So sexism not only affect women, and feminism knows that, not the extreme stupid fundamentalist feminists, but those are a minority. Of course you wouldn't know they are because nobody cares to actually read a book about it.

If I wanted to read garbage, I would go in the garbage and read what is in there.

If you want to call garbage to every single feminist philosopher and sociologist then that's your problem not mine. One thing is not accepting something as true only based on authority, that's good. But considering someone with authority garbage just because you don't like what it says it's not very nice is it?

Quote:Ok, so lets drop all the fights against human trafficking for prostitution, lets drop all the family violence and violence against women, lets drop all the education efforts that try to reduce the risk of men becoming sex abusers, lets keep portraying women as bodies only meant for male sexual arousal and cleaning products consumers. Lets abandon the political debate on freedom of choice on women's own bodies...
Quote:Everything you just listed can go both ways buddy. Both genders can be trafficked, both can be beaten, both can be sex abusers, both can be meant for sexual arousal, both can advocate women's choice. All I hear from you is sexist bullshit that says that men are the only ones doing these things, and fuck that. Women are just as much of monsters as men are, and the sooner you get that through your head is when we can have actual "human rights."

Of course it can go both ways, now if there's actual equality in the world, explain why women are the vast majority of victims in this kind of things?

Quote:lets keep portraying women as bodies only meant for male sexual arousal and cleaning products consumers.
Quote:Really sounding like one of those "extremists" right now..... Every man, in fact probably most, don't portray women sexually or think they are only meant for birth and cleaning. You seem to think that we all do this but we don't, and the ones that do are idiots, you don't have to actively hunt them down for having an opinion.

I was talking about media portrayal, but hey! lets just interpret my words in the worst possible way so I can be as wrong as I can be...


Quote:There's also a branch of feminism, called masculinism, is movement of men who did they reading and studying instead of just bitch about crazy women who want privileges, and they started to realize that sexism also affect men.
Quote:I don't know where you got this from, but I don't think you could have been any more wrong. Read this page: http://books.google.com/books?id=Ldbxabe...&q&f=false Where in there does it suggest alliance with feminism? In fact, it is the entity that opposes it. This is the kind of thing I was talking about when I said that the two sides would never stop fighting until they became unified.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism

You'll read there that some are anit-feminist. That might give you an idea of the diversity that this kind of issues have, so putting everything in one humanist basket is sure the best way to account for those differences right?

Quote:Extremists are everywhere, even in atheism we have crazy people who want to go burn churches.
Quote:Would classify you as one. Do you agree with anything on this list? http://michaelurbina.com/101-everyday-wa...-to-women/

some are reasonable don't you think? like "Listen" is always a good advice no?


Quote:So sexism not only affect women, and feminism knows that, not the extreme stupid fundamentalist feminists, but those are a minority. Of course you wouldn't know they are because nobody cares to actually read a book about it.
Quote:It really sounds like you want to regulate how men see women and how they talk about them. Also, you don't seem to understand that the issues you list go both ways, because if you did you would be a humanist like me and not a feminist. And again, fuck your books, the premise is idiotic to begin with.


Why would I want to regulate something like that? don't put words in my mouth. You lost me at "fuck your books"

(28-07-2013 04:51 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 04:48 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Clearly you don't believe you could possibly be wrong, so there's no debate here... You bored me

The facts can't be wrong......and there is a debate but way to concede your entire argument, I'm thinking I won this one.

Your facts may not be as factual as you think, but you wouldn't know, you don't want to read anything that doesn't agrees with your view right?

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28-07-2013, 05:16 PM
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
(28-07-2013 04:51 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 04:48 PM)nach_in Wrote:  Clearly you don't believe you could possibly be wrong, so there's no debate here... You bored me

The facts can't be wrong......and there is a debate but way to concede your entire argument, I'm thinking I won this one.

No, you didn't win. A little less arrogance and a little more open-mindedness will help you.

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28-07-2013, 05:34 PM
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
(28-07-2013 04:54 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I never said there is anything wrong with calling yourself a feminist. All I was saying is that humanist is a title that encompasses a much wider area of issues.

If you call yourself a feminist, I only really know one aspect of your opinions on human rights. If you call yourself a humanist, I have a rough opinion on what you believe in all aspects of human rights.

Ah, alright. Just wanted to clear some things up. Tongue

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28-07-2013, 06:26 PM
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
(28-07-2013 04:17 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(28-07-2013 01:28 AM)Atothetheist Wrote:  I will never refer to myself as a feminist. I will always refer myself as a humanist.

You can be a feminist and a misandrynist. You can be a feminist and a racist. Feminism only is one aspect of you, humanist covers feminism and more.

No, but there is nothing wrong with a person referring to themselves as one. They could very well be a humanist, but they are addressing the specific topic of gender equality (or the lack thereof in the United States) at that point in time. A feminist will say they are a feminist, but that should not mean that feminism is all they believe. We call ourselves atheists, but does not define us in our entirety.

You cannot be a feminist and a humanist because a humanist believes in equal rights for every gender and race, therefore including feminism in its scope. Feminism is idiotic because it accounts for a very small portion of topics and uses it to try and monitor the speech of others, like Donglegate. Donglegate is yet another example of a person putting themselves on a pedestal and claiming a win over oppression, when in reality she is advocating oppression. This is what I would expect to happen when a group of people think they are victims of constant abuse at the hands of stupid, pig like men while also thinking people should get punished for telling jokes or playing video games, see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q Here's something to try, punishing the offender of these offenses such as rape, violence, and abuse individually. When you end up grouping stereotypes together like that is when these idiotic wars over imaginary gender struggles happen. Remember, bad people will do bad things, but the reason for that certainly isn't what gender they are. Fighting for the rights and supremacy of one gender specifically is idiotic and counterproductive. Humanism, the group of philosophies and ethical perspectives which emphasize the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively, and generally prefers individual thought and evidence (rationalism, empiricism) over established doctrine or faith (fideism), is obviously the only way we will move forward from this backward feminism vs. machismo hate wars.

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28-07-2013, 10:47 PM
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
(28-07-2013 12:46 AM)nach_in Wrote:  feminism doesn't advocate the supremacy of the female gender, some feminist have taken it that far and given feminism a bad name, but it is about equality. So it is about human rights, a part of them (nobody could ever just go for all of them at the same time).

Yes it does advocate female supremacy whether it be directly or indirectly. The direct option would be that crazy self-entitled women like these do this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80. The indirect option is shown when those same women try to endorse ridiculous propositions like banning pornography, therein taking a stance of antibiology and anti-choice on women's body rights, and dictating the kind of speech used at conferences, therein obviously being anti free speech.

To say "some" feminists have taken these kinds of stances is an understatement.

I'm pretty sure I could through humanism. Whenever a man or a woman proposes an injustice, a humanist judges regarding the single situation for themselves whether it is right or wrong, not using a preconceived notion of character regarding the opposite sex in every situation.

What it comes down to is feminism tries to set up a social structure in which women are equal in every way to men, which is shown through biology and physiology to be totally incorrect. Feminism ultimately is counter productive to the women it tries to protect because it thrusts them into direct competition with men, where the men begin to see the deceptive and devious tactics that women try to use in order to gain an advantage. Because of these revelations, men turn their backs on the women. One example of these deceptive strategies would be their use so called beauty, and implementing it as a tool for power. As Steven Pinker says, "Beauty is not a sign of worth so the claim that people like beauty cannot be correct." As women continue to employ these kinds of tactics in order to gain an advantage, men begin to compartmentalize their feelings toward them in the work place. This transfers over to their feelings for women in the public quarters, such as the bar or club.

Already being reminded of the greedy, selfish women that the he has to deal with in the work place, a normal, healthy minded man that has not been tainted with selfishness himself has no choice but to avoid these women because he cannot get over his memories of suppression and aggressiveness he felt just during that week at work. Because of those feelings, healthy men objectify women and begin to want to have as little to do with them as possible. When men want to have as little to do with women as possible they objectify them for the only purpose of sex, discounting all of their other qualities they might have as worthless or unwanted distractions. When this happens, women have been known to implement even more disingenuous tactics to gain favor from men. In this state of neglect felt by these women, because of the men's seemingly non-interest in them, the strategy of scantily dressing is adopted in order to appeal to the men's inherent sex drive. This tactic of dress style ends up repulsing the "more decent" men even more in which case the women are met with only the "less decent" men, which are 100 times more likely to be impolite and totally sex driven. These women see these men and decide to form the stereotype toward men as chauvinist pigs, because they have exhausted all other options and have been left with the classic, though invalid, "I'm a victim, you have no right to offend me" defense, which is of course ridiculous. This cycle, I argue, is the cause of the never ending loop giving rise (and cause) to the version of modern day feminism that we see today.

So, in conclusion I think that feminism alone has contributed to the overall miserable and unhappy state the women of the US are suffering from today. It has single handedly turned women into the sex objects of men that the feminists so desperately tried to do away with in the first place while it has simultaneously put a huge weight on all women's shoulders that they are struggling to hold up.

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28-07-2013, 11:12 PM
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
ok, you define feminism as you wish and generalize every women as you like. You're right, not because you're a keen observer of reality or a great scholar of a myriad of philosophical schools. But because you will define things as you please to fit your predefined conclusions, leading you to a useless, but logically true, tautology.

Congratulations!!!

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