Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
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30-07-2013, 11:05 AM
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
(30-07-2013 10:49 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  No I think that once you pick a side, like feminism, it defeats the whole purpose of humanism. A person can advocate the equal rights of women and men at the same time just fine, why is that so difficult to do? Once you focus on men OR women I think that you simultaneously exclude the opposite sex, therefore not being a very good humanist.

It's not 'picking a side', it's focusing on those who are most disadvantaged. This is a logical and efficient way to induce societal change.

(30-07-2013 10:49 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Women are not second class citizens in America...

Um. Riiiiight.

(30-07-2013 10:49 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  ... and those facts about the pay and promotions are way too broad because they go both ways, and that is the problem with feminism. Feminists only care about the women's side because they imagine way too broad of stereotypes, like the one about pay and promotions, at I think the detriment of men. Once you do that you are automatically being counterproductive and sexist.

Do you actually know anything about feminism? Have you read any feminist literature or criticism?

I rather suspect not. Find a few university coursepages on introductory gender theory or some such. Make note of the texts they recommend. Be enlightened.

(30-07-2013 10:49 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  I say the employer can give whatever salary he or she wants to their employees because it is their money and it is their promotions to give out not yours to whine about and demand.

Except no, because discrimination of employees based on anything other than competence is unethical and illegal.

(30-07-2013 10:49 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Non-abused women need to stop whining about pay and promotions because it isn't just them that don't get paid enough or don't get a promotion. For example, my dad got laid off by a very wealthy woman that just wanted to get wealthier and decided to screw half of her and her teams workforce. Stop with your stupid victim card and stand up for what you really believe in, be an MRA, a feminist, or a humanist but you cannot have a mix, they are incompatible.

So a woman can be a bad boss. So what? The statistics bear out the unequal treatment of women in the workplace.

(30-07-2013 10:49 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  You can call yourself a feminist all you want when you also want to be a humanist, as I am assuming, and try to find sexism in everything to your heart's desire, but until there is a humanist movement, accounting for both genders' equality, nothing will get done other than MRA and feminist bickering.

Would you consider Martin Luther King Jr to be a humanist? I certainly would. And yet while he mentioned issues common to all women and all poor people, the large majority of his work was centred on the lives of african-americans. I wonder why?

(30-07-2013 10:49 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Maybe this is too optimistic of an approach but I know for damn sure we will get nowhere with this MRA vs feminist bullcrap. To me, this misguided war features crazies on both sides mixed in with humanists that decide to pick a side, and that is the most counterproductive way to go about it imaginable.

Saying that whatever breed of 'radical feminist' you're imagining in your head is in any way representative of anyone is, frankly, ridiculous.

It's as baseless as claiming the Westboro Baptist Church speaks for Quakers.

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30-07-2013, 11:26 AM
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
(30-07-2013 10:51 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(30-07-2013 10:28 AM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  If you're judging all feminists on the basis of one or a few events, then there's clearly a need for more feminism in the world.

You could pick from millions of events just like the ones mentioned, these are just the ones I am most familiar with. Btw, more of this sexism would really be a problem don't you think?

More of any sexism would be a problem. Why single out any particular kind?
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30-07-2013, 11:40 AM
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
(30-07-2013 10:49 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(30-07-2013 10:17 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  You are incredibly wrong about that. Focusing on a single focused issue is the best way to move society forward. Having a broad front means you get stymied on every obstacle, where as having a narrow focus (say womens suffrage) you handle the direct challenges and since equal rights (speaking in the long term here) are achieved only by pressing the issue but once movement on them has begun they tend to be self perpetuating however they require critical mass to achieve that self perpetuation.

The worst thing that can happen is to stop after achieving partial victory. Women are still paid less than men for equal work. They are charged more for health care and tend to receive fewer promotions. Women in America are still second class citizens though much less so than they were at the beginning of the last century. While I agree that anyone working for human rights should be in favor of universal equality (or risk being a hypocrite) the fact that most choose 1 thing to focus on is better than trying to do everything at once.

No I think that once you pick a side, like feminism, it defeats the whole purpose of humanism. A person can advocate the equal rights of women and men at the same time just fine, why is that so difficult to do? Once you focus on men OR women I think that you simultaneously exclude the opposite sex, therefore not being a very good humanist.

Women are not second class citizens in America and those facts about the pay and promotions are way too broad because they go both ways, and that is the problem with feminism. Feminists only care about the women's side because they imagine way too broad of stereotypes, like the one about pay and promotions, at I think the detriment of men. Once you do that you are automatically being counterproductive and sexist.

I say the employer can give whatever salary he or she wants to their employees because it is their money and it is their promotions to give out not yours to whine about and demand. Non-abused women need to stop whining about pay and promotions because it isn't just them that don't get paid enough or don't get a promotion. For example, my dad got laid off by a very wealthy woman that just wanted to get wealthier and decided to screw half of her and her teams workforce. Stop with your stupid victim card and stand up for what you really believe in, be an MRA, a feminist, or a humanist but you cannot have a mix, they are incompatible.

You can call yourself a feminist all you want when you also want to be a humanist, as I am assuming, and try to find sexism in everything to your heart's desire, but until there is a humanist movement, accounting for both genders' equality, nothing will get done other than MRA and feminist bickering.

Let me ask you this, do you see anything other than sexism here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80

It's kind of funny because they are, I presume, fighting for their rights, but why are they fighting amongst each other? Because they are TRYING TO WIN. This kind of thing would never happen if they were to combine and realize that they are fighting for the same thing: equality. Don't you see, if all the humanists united under one banner of equality for both genders, not just one, things would move along smoothly.

Maybe this is too optimistic of an approach but I know for damn sure we will get nowhere with this MRA vs feminist bullcrap. To me, this misguided war features crazies on both sides mixed in with humanists that decide to pick a side, and that is the most counterproductive way to go about it imaginable.

Ok a quick critique as cjlr has already done a great point by point refutation of your entire post. Fist off you have a horrible habit of ignoring facts that don't fit your preconceived notions. Point in case you flatly refusing to admit the pay scale and promotion disparity, No they do not "Go both ways" it is a fact and ignoring them and attacking those who are trying to fix the problem is making you sound more and more misogynistic.

Singling out the worst element and saying that they represent the entirety of the population and using exaggerated stereotypes as fact is what Bigots do, and dismissing all contrary evidence shows you to be closed minded. All of these things are horrible traits and unless you wish to be known by them I suggest you examine your beliefs and how you came to have them.

Now you seem to be a bright young person so I don't want to see you continue down paths that lead to hate and ignorance but if you persist in them they will define you. As a warning today Senator Robert Byrd (D/I Va) died he served several terms in the US Senate, is one of only 2 men to ever win election to the Senate as an Independant, was a leader in the fiscal conservative movement, and all he will be remembered for is the fact that he actively opposed Racial Integration. Do not let ignorance and bigotry define you, it has a nasty habit of leaving a lasting mark.

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30-07-2013, 01:35 PM
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
(30-07-2013 11:05 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(30-07-2013 10:49 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  No I think that once you pick a side, like feminism, it defeats the whole purpose of humanism. A person can advocate the equal rights of women and men at the same time just fine, why is that so difficult to do? Once you focus on men OR women I think that you simultaneously exclude the opposite sex, therefore not being a very good humanist.

It's not 'picking a side', it's focusing on those who are most disadvantaged. This is a logical and efficient way to induce societal change.

(30-07-2013 10:49 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Women are not second class citizens in America...

Um. Riiiiight.

(30-07-2013 10:49 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  ... and those facts about the pay and promotions are way too broad because they go both ways, and that is the problem with feminism. Feminists only care about the women's side because they imagine way too broad of stereotypes, like the one about pay and promotions, at I think the detriment of men. Once you do that you are automatically being counterproductive and sexist.

Do you actually know anything about feminism? Have you read any feminist literature or criticism?

I rather suspect not. Find a few university coursepages on introductory gender theory or some such. Make note of the texts they recommend. Be enlightened.

(30-07-2013 10:49 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  I say the employer can give whatever salary he or she wants to their employees because it is their money and it is their promotions to give out not yours to whine about and demand.

Except no, because discrimination of employees based on anything other than competence is unethical and illegal.

(30-07-2013 10:49 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Non-abused women need to stop whining about pay and promotions because it isn't just them that don't get paid enough or don't get a promotion. For example, my dad got laid off by a very wealthy woman that just wanted to get wealthier and decided to screw half of her and her teams workforce. Stop with your stupid victim card and stand up for what you really believe in, be an MRA, a feminist, or a humanist but you cannot have a mix, they are incompatible.

So a woman can be a bad boss. So what? The statistics bear out the unequal treatment of women in the workplace.

(30-07-2013 10:49 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  You can call yourself a feminist all you want when you also want to be a humanist, as I am assuming, and try to find sexism in everything to your heart's desire, but until there is a humanist movement, accounting for both genders' equality, nothing will get done other than MRA and feminist bickering.

Would you consider Martin Luther King Jr to be a humanist? I certainly would. And yet while he mentioned issues common to all women and all poor people, the large majority of his work was centred on the lives of african-americans. I wonder why?

(30-07-2013 10:49 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  Maybe this is too optimistic of an approach but I know for damn sure we will get nowhere with this MRA vs feminist bullcrap. To me, this misguided war features crazies on both sides mixed in with humanists that decide to pick a side, and that is the most counterproductive way to go about it imaginable.

Saying that whatever breed of 'radical feminist' you're imagining in your head is in any way representative of anyone is, frankly, ridiculous.

It's as baseless as claiming the Westboro Baptist Church speaks for Quakers.

Quote:Do you actually know anything about feminism? Have you read any feminist literature or criticism?

I know that feminism is the notion that women's rights need more attention which I don't like. Why would I want to read about that? Also please don't patronize me I am not in the mood to be talked down upon for the simple fact that you don't think I know enough.

Quote:Except no, because discrimination of employees based on anything other than competence is unethical and illegal.

It has and always will happen no matter the laws.

Quote:So a woman can be a bad boss. So what? The statistics bear out the unequal treatment of women in the workplace.

So a man can be a bad boss. So what? You don't need to stage a mass movement against it. Also statistics can be made to show anything and either way they are a gross generalization.

Quote:Would you consider Martin Luther King Jr to be a humanist? I certainly would. And yet while he mentioned issues common to all women and all poor people, the large majority of his work was centred on the lives of african-americans. I wonder why?

African-americans were being treated 100 times worse than women in this country. There were laws that specifically segregated them from the white population. Using that comparison to women today (in the US) is totally inaccurate.

Quote:Saying that whatever breed of 'radical feminist' you're imagining in your head is in any way representative of anyone is, frankly, ridiculous.

No it isn't. The fact that you don't think there is a strong group advocating the "radical" feminism is ridiculous.

Quote:It's as baseless as claiming the Westboro Baptist Church speaks for Quakers.

No it isn't because the Westboro Baptist Church speaks obviously for racist bigotry. Modern feminists want equality for women, while they should be supporting overall human rights. Please don't twist my words around and make false analogies.

We clearly have a difference in opinion and I think we should leave it at that. I respect your opinion but I frankly don't feel like arguing over nothing so I will read your response if you send one but will not reply. I will forever be in the humanist camp while you are free to choose whatever side you like.

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30-07-2013, 01:52 PM
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
(30-07-2013 11:40 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(30-07-2013 10:49 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  No I think that once you pick a side, like feminism, it defeats the whole purpose of humanism. A person can advocate the equal rights of women and men at the same time just fine, why is that so difficult to do? Once you focus on men OR women I think that you simultaneously exclude the opposite sex, therefore not being a very good humanist.

Women are not second class citizens in America and those facts about the pay and promotions are way too broad because they go both ways, and that is the problem with feminism. Feminists only care about the women's side because they imagine way too broad of stereotypes, like the one about pay and promotions, at I think the detriment of men. Once you do that you are automatically being counterproductive and sexist.

I say the employer can give whatever salary he or she wants to their employees because it is their money and it is their promotions to give out not yours to whine about and demand. Non-abused women need to stop whining about pay and promotions because it isn't just them that don't get paid enough or don't get a promotion. For example, my dad got laid off by a very wealthy woman that just wanted to get wealthier and decided to screw half of her and her teams workforce. Stop with your stupid victim card and stand up for what you really believe in, be an MRA, a feminist, or a humanist but you cannot have a mix, they are incompatible.

You can call yourself a feminist all you want when you also want to be a humanist, as I am assuming, and try to find sexism in everything to your heart's desire, but until there is a humanist movement, accounting for both genders' equality, nothing will get done other than MRA and feminist bickering.

Let me ask you this, do you see anything other than sexism here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80

It's kind of funny because they are, I presume, fighting for their rights, but why are they fighting amongst each other? Because they are TRYING TO WIN. This kind of thing would never happen if they were to combine and realize that they are fighting for the same thing: equality. Don't you see, if all the humanists united under one banner of equality for both genders, not just one, things would move along smoothly.

Maybe this is too optimistic of an approach but I know for damn sure we will get nowhere with this MRA vs feminist bullcrap. To me, this misguided war features crazies on both sides mixed in with humanists that decide to pick a side, and that is the most counterproductive way to go about it imaginable.

Ok a quick critique as cjlr has already done a great point by point refutation of your entire post. Fist off you have a horrible habit of ignoring facts that don't fit your preconceived notions. Point in case you flatly refusing to admit the pay scale and promotion disparity, No they do not "Go both ways" it is a fact and ignoring them and attacking those who are trying to fix the problem is making you sound more and more misogynistic.

Singling out the worst element and saying that they represent the entirety of the population and using exaggerated stereotypes as fact is what Bigots do, and dismissing all contrary evidence shows you to be closed minded. All of these things are horrible traits and unless you wish to be known by them I suggest you examine your beliefs and how you came to have them.

Now you seem to be a bright young person so I don't want to see you continue down paths that lead to hate and ignorance but if you persist in them they will define you. As a warning today Senator Robert Byrd (D/I Va) died he served several terms in the US Senate, is one of only 2 men to ever win election to the Senate as an Independant, was a leader in the fiscal conservative movement, and all he will be remembered for is the fact that he actively opposed Racial Integration. Do not let ignorance and bigotry define you, it has a nasty habit of leaving a lasting mark.

What do you suppose we do about this pay scale difference between men and women? Legislate that women automatically get the same amount of money as men? The only thing feminism is doing is making men dislike women even more, or at least that is what I see.

Quote:No they do not "Go both ways" it is a fact and ignoring them and attacking those who are trying to fix the problem is making you sound more and more misogynistic.

That's ridiculous and I refuse to concede it is a fact that every woman makes less than their male counterparts. I think that statement you made is the worst generalization of all. I am no misogynist, I am for equal rights of both men and women, I do not pick a side.

The fact that you feel the need to talk down upon me and give me a talk about how to act and how to argue is repulsive. I am trying to make an argument for humanism not anything misogynistic. The fact that you see an antifeminist argument and automatically assume that I am a misogynist illustrates my point about MRA vs. feminist counter-productivity perfectly. I agree that feminism of the 70s made huge gains for the rights of women in the US. Although, I think that now feminism is leaning toward the extreme side and causing more harm than good. I never said that all feminists were extreme nut jobs like you seem to think I said but I also still don't like the way they go about things. I will say to you what I said to cjlr, we apparently disagree about this topic and suggest we leave it at that. Nothing good will come from arguing over nothing.

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30-07-2013, 01:55 PM
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
(30-07-2013 11:26 AM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  
(30-07-2013 10:51 AM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  You could pick from millions of events just like the ones mentioned, these are just the ones I am most familiar with. Btw, more of this sexism would really be a problem don't you think?

More of any sexism would be a problem. Why single out any particular kind?

That's exactly how I feel. There is sexism against each gender from both sides, and refuse to believe that women need more help in the rights department than men. Therefore, I am a humanist and will never be only an MRA or a feminist, I support each branch equally under the name of humanism.

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30-07-2013, 01:59 PM
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
Quote:I know that feminism is the notion that women's rights need more attention which I don't like.

That's simply not true, seriously it's nothing like that. At some point the theories do fall into the idea that the issues the authors analyse require attention, but not necessarily more than a racism scholar says racism should be addressed.

You have a false preconception of feminism, and I strongly recommend you to read some feminsit book, at least an introductory one, so you can have an actual taste of what feminists talk about, because they do NOT advocate for special treatment of women or women's rights. They just focus on the issue.

Try to read this article (with nice eyes, the author is particularly complex so the abstracts are slightly out of context) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Butler
I know it's TL/DR but she's close to the vanguard of feminism today, and in the "publications" section you'll see how she also ventures into politics, linguistics and religion...

seriously man, you have a prejudice on the word "feminist". You're right about some points, but overall you're wrong about feminism.

Sorry if I sounded patronizing, not my intention.

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30-07-2013, 02:04 PM
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
(30-07-2013 01:52 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  
(30-07-2013 11:40 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Ok a quick critique as cjlr has already done a great point by point refutation of your entire post. Fist off you have a horrible habit of ignoring facts that don't fit your preconceived notions. Point in case you flatly refusing to admit the pay scale and promotion disparity, No they do not "Go both ways" it is a fact and ignoring them and attacking those who are trying to fix the problem is making you sound more and more misogynistic.

Singling out the worst element and saying that they represent the entirety of the population and using exaggerated stereotypes as fact is what Bigots do, and dismissing all contrary evidence shows you to be closed minded. All of these things are horrible traits and unless you wish to be known by them I suggest you examine your beliefs and how you came to have them.

Now you seem to be a bright young person so I don't want to see you continue down paths that lead to hate and ignorance but if you persist in them they will define you. As a warning today Senator Robert Byrd (D/I Va) died he served several terms in the US Senate, is one of only 2 men to ever win election to the Senate as an Independant, was a leader in the fiscal conservative movement, and all he will be remembered for is the fact that he actively opposed Racial Integration. Do not let ignorance and bigotry define you, it has a nasty habit of leaving a lasting mark.

What do you suppose we do about this pay scale difference between men and women? Legislate that women automatically get the same amount of money as men? The only thing feminism is doing is making men dislike women even more, or at least that is what I see.

Quote:No they do not "Go both ways" it is a fact and ignoring them and attacking those who are trying to fix the problem is making you sound more and more misogynistic.

That's ridiculous and I refuse to concede it is a fact that every woman makes less than their male counterparts. I think that statement you made is the worst generalization of all. I am no misogynist, I am for equal rights of both men and women, I do not pick a side.

The fact that you feel the need to talk down upon me and give me a talk about how to act and how to argue is repulsive. I am trying to make an argument for humanism not anything misogynistic. The fact that you see an antifeminist argument and automatically assume that I am a misogynist illustrates my point about MRA vs. feminist counter-productivity perfectly. I agree that feminism of the 70s made huge gains for the rights of women in the US. Although, I think that now feminism is leaning toward the extreme side and causing more harm than good. I never said that all feminists were extreme nut jobs like you seem to think I said but I also still don't like the way they go about things. I will say to you what I said to cjlr, we apparently disagree about this topic and suggest we leave it at that. Nothing good will come from arguing over nothing.

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/News...d=18890757
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/09...38806.html
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/pers...p/1652511/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male%E2%80...ted_States
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/l...-wage-gap/
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/l...-wage-gap/
http://www.pay-equity.org/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonk...-recovery/http://www.iwpr.org/initiatives/pay-equi...rimination
http://www.boston.com/business/personalf...fferences/

Willful ignorance is inexcusable when you are making a claim. There is a pay disparity in America (and the rest of the world) and you arguing against it in spite of the evidence is what makes you close minded and a misogynist. Go cry elsewhere that we are talking down to you. I only do so when presented with someone who is basking in their stupidity and expecting it to be treated as equal to others knowledge.

In short grow up and study the issue before spouting off or you look like a moron which is exactly what has happened here.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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30-07-2013, 02:05 PM
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
(30-07-2013 01:59 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
Quote:I know that feminism is the notion that women's rights need more attention which I don't like.

That's simply not true, seriously it's nothing like that. At some point the theories do fall into the idea that the issues the authors analyse require attention, but not necessarily more than a racism scholar says racism should be addressed.

You have a false preconception of feminism, and I strongly recommend you to read some feminsit book, at least an introductory one, so you can have an actual taste of what feminists talk about, because they do NOT advocate for special treatment of women or women's rights. They just focus on the issue.

Try to read this article (with nice eyes, the author is particularly complex so the abstracts are slightly out of context) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Butler
I know it's TL/DR but she's close to the vanguard of feminism today, and in the "publications" section you'll see how she also ventures into politics, linguistics and religion...

seriously man, you have a prejudice on the word "feminist". You're right about some points, but overall you're wrong about feminism.

Sorry if I sounded patronizing, not my intention.

There is no true definition of what feminism is. There is a different definition to everyone, much like there are denominations of denominations in religion. This is the side of feminism that I have encountered. Don't try and tell me what the exact objective of feminism it man, everyone has different objectives and ambitions.

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30-07-2013, 02:08 PM (This post was last modified: 30-07-2013 02:17 PM by Logica Humano.)
RE: Why Not Just Advocate Human Rights?
Quote:fem·i·nism
/ˈfeməˌnizəm/
Noun
The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

You are a fool if you are going to argue about the purpose of feminism. There are different extremes, yes, but how fucking obtuse do you have to be to generalize about an entire movement like that? What, do you generalize about any movement that has militant groups?

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