Why Only Christianity?
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06-08-2011, 04:25 PM
RE: Why Only Christianity?
(05-08-2011 04:58 PM)An_Actual_Theist Wrote:  This isn't a purple unicorn or a pink elephant. This is a belief held among various members of the scientific community based on observing an actual event. This is a real thing, there are FACTS behind it.


Funny you say that because we are on page four and you have delivered zero facts. Continue looking stupid though, I don't mind, just don't breed.

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06-08-2011, 04:55 PM
RE: Why Only Christianity?
You have yet to do anything other then post a link to that you tube video, other then that you have NO sources. That is intellectually lazy, especially if you want to debate.

You keep saying that this belief is accepted amongst scientists and it's very supported, yet you provide nothing.

So until you bring in some actual sources (scientific studies, peer reviewed research, medical journals) I'm simply going to think that all of this is just personal belief with no grounds in reality.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence- Carl Sagen

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07-08-2011, 08:55 AM
RE: Why Only Christianity?
(06-08-2011 02:13 PM)An_Actual_Theist Wrote:  To put it simply, electrons can not just decide "Oh crap, someones observing me, better stop acting like a wave and start acting like matter again."
Quote:Why can't they? How do you know they can't? Why is an intelligent, telepathic electron - much better, a network of intelligence among electrons - less probable than an omnipotent external intelligence?
Quote:Honestly, that could be another possibility.
Assuming that idea is right, that would mean that:
a) Conscience awareness can transcend basic laws of physics
b) Conscience awareness can exist outside of the vessel of the human body.
c) Conscience does not die with us, so there is an afterlife of sorts.

I don't see how it means any of those things.
a) You can't know what transcends basic laws of physics until you know all the laws of physics - which is not yet. And an electron's awareness of its twin, or of an observer, or changing behaviour according to changing conditions, don't necessarily correspond to the human type of consciousness - or the reptilian, or the arthropod, for that matter. In no way does it presuppose a conscience.
b) Obviously, it can and does, in a large number of other terrestrial species, and i suppose a far greater number of extraterrestrial ones. So?
c) Huh? That's a biggish leap. When i die, all the atoms in my body will be liberated and recombine to form different matter - if animate, then that might be life-after-life, of a sort - but that doesn't mean that my present personality will be conscious in or of the new thing. Unlikely, in fact, since the current configuration of 'my' matter gives me no awareness of any previous forms.

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07-08-2011, 09:37 AM
 
RE: Why Only Christianity?
(06-08-2011 04:12 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(06-08-2011 02:13 PM)An_Actual_Theist Wrote:  
(05-08-2011 10:59 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(05-08-2011 10:24 PM)An_Actual_Theist Wrote:  Some omnipotent being is observing the whole universe to keep it intact. That is my proof. So whats wrong with that?

Only thing wrong with that is that it don't require some omnipotent being to keep shit together, any old GirlyMan observing will suffice.

Unfortunately, you can not see every part of the Universe at once nor can the rest of humanity.

Don't need to. They're just probability waves until they collapse once observed. We gradually make the universe manifest as we observe it. Until it's observed it only exists as probability waves. We're the ones making the world just by virtue of us looking at it.
We really can not know ever if you are right or if I am right. Who knows, maybe it works like that. For all we know, objects return to wave states immediately after we stop observing them in your scenario. I don't think either of us knows enough to say one of us is right.

(06-08-2011 04:25 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  
(05-08-2011 04:58 PM)An_Actual_Theist Wrote:  This isn't a purple unicorn or a pink elephant. This is a belief held among various members of the scientific community based on observing an actual event. This is a real thing, there are FACTS behind it.


Funny you say that because we are on page four and you have delivered zero facts. Continue looking stupid though, I don't mind, just don't breed.
Are you actually reading this or just assuming I'm another dumb theist? Here are the facts which, in fact, appear several times on page four. Now please stop using dub, vague generalities about what I am and what I not doing and address what I am saying.

This is a direct quote

"The basic consensus among the scientific community is either it is a metaphysical issue or their is a multiverse. The problem with both is that it is impossible to test either and it comes down to speculation. But the way I see it, the fact that we can observe something to change its behavior implies directly that conscience has an effect on a sub-atomic scale, because observing an object does nothing else to an object except make the photons it reflects hit our eyes or the "eye" of a recording device. So it is either a God or subatomic particles can think."

These are FACTS. The FACT is that simple observation of a conscience being can alter the course of objects in the Universe. Another FACT is we would observe objects that are not constantly observing appear to do things that do not follow the laws of physics resulting from entire objects being in multiple places at once, or we would observe entire objects as tearing themselves apart from the protons and neutrons picking different paths, or random object magnetization due to electrons existing in unorthodox locations.

I fully understand this is a place for intelligent debate, and I will back down or acknowledge other possibilities once proven wrong, something you have yet to do.
(07-08-2011 08:55 AM)Peterkin Wrote:  
(06-08-2011 02:13 PM)An_Actual_Theist Wrote:  To put it simply, electrons can not just decide "Oh crap, someones observing me, better stop acting like a wave and start acting like matter again."
Quote:Why can't they? How do you know they can't? Why is an intelligent, telepathic electron - much better, a network of intelligence among electrons - less probable than an omnipotent external intelligence?
Quote:Honestly, that could be another possibility.
Assuming that idea is right, that would mean that:
a) Conscience awareness can transcend basic laws of physics
b) Conscience awareness can exist outside of the vessel of the human body.
c) Conscience does not die with us, so there is an afterlife of sorts.

I don't see how it means any of those things.
a) You can't know what transcends basic laws of physics until you know all the laws of physics - which is not yet. And an electron's awareness of its twin, or of an observer, or changing behaviour according to changing conditions, don't necessarily correspond to the human type of consciousness - or the reptilian, or the arthropod, for that matter. In no way does it presuppose a conscience.
b) Obviously, it can and does, in a large number of other terrestrial species, and i suppose a far greater number of extraterrestrial ones. So?
c) Huh? That's a biggish leap. When i die, all the atoms in my body will be liberated and recombine to form different matter - if animate, then that might be life-after-life, of a sort - but that doesn't mean that my present personality will be conscious in or of the new thing. Unlikely, in fact, since the current configuration of 'my' matter gives me no awareness of any previous forms.
Well, I understand c.
But a and b are wrong.

No animal other then us displays signs of being conscience, which is defined as self awareness and the ability to self improve based on awareness. And based on you assumption that electrons can make choices, that would imply that they are conscience, meaning that conscience exists outside of living vessels. And I'm relativity sure that changing a photons properties such that they are able to change the behavior of a particle without any actual transfer of energy beyond normal is just a little at odds with the laws of physics.

(06-08-2011 04:55 PM)monkeyshine89 Wrote:  You have yet to do anything other then post a link to that you tube video, other then that you have NO sources. That is intellectually lazy, especially if you want to debate.

You keep saying that this belief is accepted amongst scientists and it's very supported, yet you provide nothing.

So until you bring in some actual sources (scientific studies, peer reviewed research, medical journals) I'm simply going to think that all of this is just personal belief with no grounds in reality.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence- Carl Sagen
Give me time. I'm still looking for the SA magazine with the article I mentioned. I'm still missing about 15 magazines which are somewhere in my house, one of which has thew article. I understand your skepticism, just give me time.
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07-08-2011, 10:36 AM
RE: Why Only Christianity?
Then next time wait for your sources to be ready when you debate. Think about how unprofessional it would look if you saw people debating and the other just said...'I have proof, I just need time to get it together...'

It's not like we came upon you, unprepared, you came to us, so it's YOU that should be bringing the big guns.

Quote:These are FACTS. The FACT is that simple observation of a conscience being can alter the course of objects in the Universe. Another FACT is we would observe objects that are not constantly observing appear to do things that do not follow the laws of physics resulting from entire objects being in multiple places at once, or we would observe entire objects as tearing themselves apart from the protons and neutrons picking different paths, or random object magnetization due to electrons existing in unorthodox locations

Actually most of what you said are hypothesis or theoretical musing, which happens often in this branch of physics. They are not facts, facts are things that have been proved, almost none of those things have been proved at all. There is SOME evidence to suggest that they might have some worth, but not a lot.


Anyways, I fail to see how any of this proves a god or a grand consciousness or any other metaphysical BS. You are using, as many had already pointed out, the god of gaps argument.

I already looked through the internet to find what you have been talking about, and found that most of it is either unscientific or very vague and non-specific to your argument, so I really hope you have some good sources.

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07-08-2011, 12:00 PM
RE: Why Only Christianity?
Quote: .... No animal other then us displays signs of being conscience, which is defined as self awareness and the ability to self improve based on awareness.
Is that the definition? My dictionary says, knowledge of one's actions as right or wrong.
If you meant consciousness, that doesn't include self-improvement; only mental activity: sensation, awareness of environment, emotion and thought.
In both cases, my statement about other species stands.

Quote: And based on you assumption that electrons can make choices,

I make no such assumption. I merely say it's a more likely hypothesis, from the observed phenomena, than an omnipotent external intelligence of unknown location, aetiology or properties. Certainly don't rule out an entirely different explanation.

Quote: that would imply that they are conscience, meaning that conscience exists outside of living vessels.
Before, you said human vessels. Yes, consciousness and conscience, do certainly exist in other than human.... bodies. 'Vessel' sounds to me as if it were purpose-built to contain consciousness, which i don't believe to be the case.
If electrons have some kind of awareness, which isn't necessarily consciousness and doesn't even begin to imply a morality, then, yes, awareness could exist outside living vessels. Like chrystals, computers, or internet-works. That doesn't automatically lead to a next step or implication, though you may infer, project and speculate at will.

Quote: And I'm relativity sure that changing a photons properties such that they are able to change the behavior of a particle without any actual transfer of energy beyond normal is just a little at odds with the laws of physics.

Quite so. Something in that process, as you describe it, is unexplained.
Therefore, magic.

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07-08-2011, 01:02 PM
RE: Why Only Christianity?
(07-08-2011 09:37 AM)An_Actual_Theist Wrote:  
(06-08-2011 04:12 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(06-08-2011 02:13 PM)An_Actual_Theist Wrote:  
(05-08-2011 10:59 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(05-08-2011 10:24 PM)An_Actual_Theist Wrote:  Some omnipotent being is observing the whole universe to keep it intact. That is my proof. So whats wrong with that?

Only thing wrong with that is that it don't require some omnipotent being to keep shit together, any old GirlyMan observing will suffice.

Unfortunately, you can not see every part of the Universe at once nor can the rest of humanity.

Don't need to. They're just probability waves until they collapse once observed. We gradually make the universe manifest as we observe it. Until it's observed it only exists as probability waves. We're the ones making the world just by virtue of us looking at it.
We really can not know ever if you are right or if I am right. Who knows, maybe it works like that.

Oh I think we'll have the capacity to know soon enough. Took us almost 30 years to implement Wheeler's Delayed Choice Experiment. But in 2007 we did. I wouldn't underestimate us.

(07-08-2011 09:37 AM)An_Actual_Theist Wrote:  For all we know, objects return to wave states immediately after we stop observing them in your scenario.

Yes, for all we know they very well might.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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07-08-2011, 01:11 PM
RE: Why Only Christianity?





Futurama FTW!

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07-08-2011, 09:16 PM
RE: Why Only Christianity?
@An_Actual_Theist,

EGYPT - 3000 BC
HORUS
-Born on the dec. 25
-Born of a virgin
-Star in the east
-Adorned by 3 kings
-Teacher at 12
-Baptized/Ministry at 30
-12 disciples
HORUS
-Performed miracles
-''Lamb of God''/''The light''
- Crucified
-Dead for 3 days
-Resurrected

GREECE- 1200 BC
ATTIS
-Born of a virgin
-Born on dec.25th
-Crucified
-Dead for 3 days
-Resurrected

INDIA - 900 BC
KRISHNA
-Born of a virgin
-Star in the east
-Performed miracles
-Resurrected

GREECE - 500 BC
DIONYSUS
-Born of a virgin
-Born on dec.25th
-Performed miracles
-''King of kings''
-''Alpha and Omega''
-Resurrected

PERSIA - 1200BC
MITHRA
-Born of a virgin
-Born on dec.25th
-12 disciples
-Performed miracles
-Dead for 3 days
-Resurrected
-'Sunday worship'

Jesus Christ
-Born of a virgin
-Born on dec.25th
-Star in the the east
-Performed miracles
-Dead for 3 days
-Resurrected

http://youtu.be/Lio3n66bwOo Part 1: The Greatest Story Ever Told (Go to 14:31 minute mark)
http://youtu.be/k90p2m4b_6k Part 2: The Greatest Story Ever Told
http://youtu.be/o9la3m0fLOE Part 3: The Greatest Story Ever Told

"The bible has been shown to be logically, historically, philosophically, sociologically, scientifically and even morally dead wrong about everything back to front" - Aron Ra
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08-08-2011, 12:07 AM
RE: Why Only Christianity?
Danny, Allot of that has been shown to be inaccurate. Look into the refutations of that source.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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