Why Prayers Aren't Answered
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16-05-2017, 02:33 PM
RE: Why Prayers Aren't Answered
(16-05-2017 05:31 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 04:47 AM)ColdComfort Wrote:  I was once banned from a website for arguing this point so I'll just keep this straightforward. No honest person would say the NT, or Christian belief in general, says God will answer any prayer of petition. It's a special kind of stupid in the strawman game.

So just wondering, if a god never answers prayer, then how do you distinguish between a god that never answers prayer and a god that doesn't exist?

I didn't say God never answers prayers of petition. Not even close.
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16-05-2017, 02:38 PM
RE: Why Prayers Aren't Answered
(16-05-2017 02:33 PM)ColdComfort Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 05:31 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  So just wondering, if a god never answers prayer, then how do you distinguish between a god that never answers prayer and a god that doesn't exist?

I didn't say God never answers prayers of petition. Not even close.

Can you cite an example of something that is demonstrably an answered prayer?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-05-2017, 02:44 PM
RE: Why Prayers Aren't Answered
(16-05-2017 07:13 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 04:47 AM)ColdComfort Wrote:  I was once banned from a website for arguing this point so I'll just keep this straightforward. No honest person would say the NT, or Christian belief in general, says God will answer any prayer of petition. It's a special kind of stupid in the strawman game.
You won't get banned here for that, but you can and will be ridiculed.
Quote:If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? -- Jesus (Matt 7:11)

Then, there's this:

Quote:Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. -- James 4:3

One asks for things and doesn't get them, not because god doesn't answer petitions, but because you don't ask for the right things. Indeed, the prior verse ends with, "You have not because you ask not". Clearly teaching that one should ask for things from god, in order to get them, provided they are not simply selfish requests for trivialities.

Quote:Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. -- Phil 4:6

Now ... if you have noticed that god doesn't grant petitions, and have just decided not to cherry pick these kinds of scriptures, of which the above is a tiny sample ... that's one way to try to cope with it. But rather an exhausting one I would think. It's far simpler and more honest to simply acknowledge that the unambiguous and lavish promises of god's abundance just waiting to burst upon the faithful who will simply request it, is a lie.

The quote from Matt supports my position esp. if you read the two preceding verses:

Mat 7:9
Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?

Mat 7:10
Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?

Mat 7:11
If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

So does the quote from James. I dislike cherry picking from anyone and from any book. The first time I heard the idea that God promises to give you anything that you pray for was on an atheist website a few years ago. I have never heard any Christian of any denominational say so. If there is some wacked out Christian you can dig up who says something like this I will tell them the same thing. It's wrong.
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16-05-2017, 02:48 PM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2017 03:12 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why Prayers Aren't Answered
Actually JESUS said, if one asked for ANYTHING in his name, it would be granted.
John 14:14
"You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."

Apparently this one thinks he knows better than Jesus.
See my signature. Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-05-2017, 02:48 PM
RE: Why Prayers Aren't Answered
So how about every kid who's every prayed for Mommy to get better, only for her to die? I guess God knows best huh? I mean, that'd totally be like giving the kid a serpent. Rolleyes

If God is reliable as claimed why do you go to the doctor? I take it that you do? I mean otherwise, isn't what's happening God's will? Or is God's will that you go to the doctor?

I guess the prayers that really work are the ones that ask that natural laws be obeyed? Dear God I pray that gravity may continue working today.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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16-05-2017, 03:09 PM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2017 03:15 PM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Why Prayers Aren't Answered
(16-05-2017 02:33 PM)ColdComfort Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 05:31 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  So just wondering, if a god never answers prayer, then how do you distinguish between a god that never answers prayer and a god that doesn't exist?

I didn't say God never answers prayers of petition. Not even close.

So demonstrate your powers of post-hoc rationalization and regale us with a story of one of these alleged answered prayers. Drinking Beverage

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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16-05-2017, 03:12 PM
RE: Why Prayers Aren't Answered
(16-05-2017 02:44 PM)ColdComfort Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 07:13 AM)mordant Wrote:  You won't get banned here for that, but you can and will be ridiculed.

Then, there's this:


One asks for things and doesn't get them, not because god doesn't answer petitions, but because you don't ask for the right things. Indeed, the prior verse ends with, "You have not because you ask not". Clearly teaching that one should ask for things from god, in order to get them, provided they are not simply selfish requests for trivialities.


Now ... if you have noticed that god doesn't grant petitions, and have just decided not to cherry pick these kinds of scriptures, of which the above is a tiny sample ... that's one way to try to cope with it. But rather an exhausting one I would think. It's far simpler and more honest to simply acknowledge that the unambiguous and lavish promises of god's abundance just waiting to burst upon the faithful who will simply request it, is a lie.

The quote from Matt supports my position esp. if you read the two preceding verses:

Mat 7:9
Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?

Mat 7:10
Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?

Mat 7:11
If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

So does the quote from James. I dislike cherry picking from anyone and from any book. The first time I heard the idea that God promises to give you anything that you pray for was on an atheist website a few years ago. I have never heard any Christian of any denominational say so. If there is some wacked out Christian you can dig up who says something like this I will tell them the same thing. It's wrong.

Why are you pretending to ignore the millions of evangelicals that believe this?

Maybe you are the wacked-out Christian, or the One True Scotsman.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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16-05-2017, 03:45 PM
RE: Why Prayers Aren't Answered
(16-05-2017 02:38 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 02:33 PM)ColdComfort Wrote:  I didn't say God never answers prayers of petition. Not even close.

Can you cite an example of something that is demonstrably an answered prayer?

Not in detail. It's never happened to me but I don't tend to ask for things. Every time Rome canonizes a saint, except martyrs, careful investigation is made of cures after an individual prayers for one. I know the answer 1) They are liars 2) How do you know it was God even if doctors can't find an explanation. The answer to 1) They are not 2) You can't with certainty I suppose.
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16-05-2017, 03:48 PM
RE: Why Prayers Aren't Answered
(16-05-2017 03:12 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 02:44 PM)ColdComfort Wrote:  The quote from Matt supports my position esp. if you read the two preceding verses:

Mat 7:9
Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone?

Mat 7:10
Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent?

Mat 7:11
If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

So does the quote from James. I dislike cherry picking from anyone and from any book. The first time I heard the idea that God promises to give you anything that you pray for was on an atheist website a few years ago. I have never heard any Christian of any denominational say so. If there is some wacked out Christian you can dig up who says something like this I will tell them the same thing. It's wrong.

Why are you pretending to ignore the millions of evangelicals that believe this?

Maybe you are the wacked-out Christian, or the One True Scotsman.

I'm not pretending. I've never heard an evangelical say God will give you anything you ask for. If I'm wrong, and there are millions who believe that, they are wrong.
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16-05-2017, 03:53 PM
RE: Why Prayers Aren't Answered
(16-05-2017 02:48 PM)morondog Wrote:  So how about every kid who's every prayed for Mommy to get better, only for her to die? I guess God knows best huh? I mean, that'd totally be like giving the kid a serpent. Rolleyes

If God is reliable as claimed why do you go to the doctor? I take it that you do? I mean otherwise, isn't what's happening God's will? Or is God's will that you go to the doctor?

I guess the prayers that really work are the ones that ask that natural laws be obeyed? Dear God I pray that gravity may continue working today.

That's a different issue. Where in the Bible or any other source for Christian faith does it say we won't suffer? Quite the opposite. The proposition I'm contending with is God will give you anything you ask for.
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