Why Prayers Aren't Answered
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16-05-2017, 07:00 PM
RE: Why Prayers Aren't Answered
(16-05-2017 06:51 PM)ColdComfort Wrote:  This is idiocy. I ask you for evidence of what evangelicals believe and you give me the number of evangelicals in Texas. And then accuse me of dishonesty!

This nonsense is a strawman argument to set up an "argument" that Christianity must be false. Nothing in the Bible says God will give me a million bucks if I ask for it. Or give my wife cancer because I want to marry my secretary.
As a former evangelical I can assure you that evangelicals teach that you should petition god and expect answers. Yes, they teach that the petition must be appropriate, and that he might say "no" or "later" (so you conveniently can't tell if you're dealing with an answered prayer or random happenstance). But they DO teach it. And that's triply true of charismatics / pentecostals / holiness types, and you can triple it again for the prosperity gospel folks.

You've been given plenty of Bible versus that serve as an adequate rationalization for those very commonplace and ubiquitous teachings. One can quibble about how literally one should take the verses or what explicit or implicit caveats and "gotchas" there might be, but it's no exaggeration that millions of people expect god to answer prayer, at a very minimum, in life-and-death situations and generally in any sort of dire need -- and a healthy percentage of people pray for trivialities like good grades and to find car keys or to win a damned football game.

Nor is any of this an attempt to say "therefore Christianity is false". It's one of the many ways it's frequently divorced from reality and teaches bullshit, but that's not the same as "proving" it false. Its basic premises aren't even falsifiable. But it is a good reason to declare it an epic fail from an epistemological standpoint.
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16-05-2017, 07:02 PM
RE: Why Prayers Aren't Answered
(16-05-2017 05:46 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  If Jesus says he'll do anything, in order that the Father is glorified, how is taking him at his word, "cherry-picking" ? You don't believe he said that apparently. The Evangelist John apparently did.
I do believe that Jesus said that. How is giving us anything we ask for glorifying the Father? And I also believe it is cherry picking. How do you support this idea from Jesus' own prayers in the Garden? How has this amazing Christian truth escaped the attention of Christian theologians for two millennia now? Enough.
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16-05-2017, 07:07 PM
RE: Why Prayers Aren't Answered
(16-05-2017 07:00 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 06:51 PM)ColdComfort Wrote:  This is idiocy. I ask you for evidence of what evangelicals believe and you give me the number of evangelicals in Texas. And then accuse me of dishonesty!

This nonsense is a strawman argument to set up an "argument" that Christianity must be false. Nothing in the Bible says God will give me a million bucks if I ask for it. Or give my wife cancer because I want to marry my secretary.
[b]As a former evangelical I can assure you that evangelicals teach that you should petition god and expect answers. Yes, they teach that the petition must be appropriate, and that he might say "no" or "later"[/b] (so you conveniently can't tell if you're dealing with an answered prayer or random happenstance). But they DO teach it. And that's triply true of charismatics / pentecostals / holiness types, and you can triple it again for the prosperity gospel folks.

You've been given plenty of Bible versus that serve as an adequate rationalization for those very commonplace and ubiquitous teachings. One can quibble about how literally one should take the verses or what explicit or implicit caveats and "gotchas" there might be, but it's no exaggeration that millions of people expect god to answer prayer, at a very minimum, in life-and-death situations and generally in any sort of dire need -- and a healthy percentage of people pray for trivialities like good grades and to find car keys or to win a damned football game.

Nor is any of this an attempt to say "therefore Christianity is false". It's one of the many ways it's frequently divorced from reality and teaches bullshit, but that's not the same as "proving" it false. Its basic premises aren't even falsifiable. But it is a good reason to declare it an epic fail from an epistemological standpoint.

The part in bold is what I've said all along. Again. Enough.
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16-05-2017, 07:10 PM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2017 07:57 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Why Prayers Aren't Answered
(16-05-2017 07:02 PM)ColdComfort Wrote:  I do believe that Jesus said that. How is giving us anything we ask for glorifying the Father? And I also believe it is cherry picking. How do you support this idea from Jesus' own prayers in the Garden? How has this amazing Christian truth escaped the attention of Christian theologians for two millennia now? Enough.

It's not my job to make YOUR idiot 'scriptures' consistent. You turned around the verses on purpose, to suit your purpose. Not surprising, most Catholics are Cafeteria Catholics.
"And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son." It is precisely TO glorify the Father, he says he will do anything asked for.

According to YOU, saying Jesus died on one day in some scripture, AND/OR another in John is "cherry-picking". They can't BOTH be true. ONE is false. Jesus can't BOTH have been silent during his trial, and still have given a sermon. ONE is wrong. That is not "cherry-picking". If he DID say what you admit he did, (cherry-picking or not), and you claim something ELSE, then you disagree with what Jesus said.

Are you always this irrational and inconsistent ?
It's a well known fact, that there are countess contradictions in scripture.
https://infidels.org/library/modern/dona...tions.html

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-05-2017, 07:18 PM
RE: Why Prayers Aren't Answered
(16-05-2017 06:33 PM)ColdComfort Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 04:40 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You said Rome checks carefully for answered prayers. They don't. They look for miracles. That's what the article is talking about. At least one of the miracles used for JPII was bogus. SHe didn't even have the disease she was said to be cured of.
There is no remission of ALS, (to that extent). http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyath...ent-popes/
I don't believe that article. The remission story doesn't seem to be true or at least I couldn't find any source for it. And she did seem to have Parkinsons.

The latest statement from the nun herself I could find is 2014.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/mi...-1.1769668

http://www.thedivinemercy.org/news/My-Mi...-Cure-4917

I know nothing about the woman in S. America. It is a miracle due to the intercession of the candidate for sainthood. What is your point here?

In all such cases to make a judgement you would have to know a great deal more than I do by googling some articles including having medical knowledge. Your claim that the extraordinary cure of this nun, which was overnight, is bogus seems far-fetched. Unless she's lying too I suppose.

I am quite trusting in the Church's investigation of these things. Far more trusting than most institutions. Sure there is room for skepticism. Maybe her Parkinsons was cured overnight by purely physical causes which doctors don't understand and have never seen before. You're welcome to your views.

I was asked a question and I answered it.

You did not. You posted some words. The words answer nothing. there is no reason AT ALL to "trust" the church's investigations of any of these matters.
http://indianexpress.com/article/researc...sainthood/
The REAL question is, why would your deity cure a couple people, and leave MILLIONS of innocent babies to DIE with no miraculous intervention ? Your trust is nothing but ignorant bias.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-05-2017, 08:43 PM
RE: Why Prayers Aren't Answered
(16-05-2017 07:18 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The REAL question is, why would your deity cure a couple people, and leave MILLIONS of innocent babies to DIE with no miraculous intervention ?

Free will or god's plan or whatever else idiocy that deluded can think of to abdicate their genocidal, primitive space wizard of responsibility.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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16-05-2017, 08:49 PM
Why Prayers Aren't Answered
(15-05-2017 01:49 PM)ResidentEvilFan Wrote:  To those people, everything is an answer.

If it happens, it was god blessing them. If it doesn't happen, god is testing them/god knows what's best/insert other bullshit.


EXACTLY. Well said. Religious people already have all the answers. They will just fill in the blanks to suit their beliefs. Every time. When I was younger I did not pay attention to religion at all. But now as I age and pay attention to the world I am getting more and more pissed off and disgusted by being surrounded by people living in make believe world.


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16-05-2017, 08:51 PM
RE: Why Prayers Aren't Answered
(16-05-2017 08:43 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 07:18 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  The REAL question is, why would your deity cure a couple people, and leave MILLIONS of innocent babies to DIE with no miraculous intervention ?

Free will or god's plan or whatever else idiocy that deluded can think of to abdicate their genocidal, primitive space wizard of responsibility.

Space wizard Thumbsup I'm stealing this Tongue
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16-05-2017, 08:58 PM
RE: Why Prayers Aren't Answered
(16-05-2017 08:51 PM)jennybee Wrote:  
(16-05-2017 08:43 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Free will or god's plan or whatever else idiocy that deluded can think of to abdicate their genocidal, primitive space wizard of responsibility.

Space wizard Thumbsup I'm stealing this Tongue

Being "robbed" by pretty lady isn't bad way to start another day filled with work andtoo many jokes with sexual overtones Wink

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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17-05-2017, 12:28 AM
RE: Why Prayers Aren't Answered
(16-05-2017 06:33 PM)ColdComfort Wrote:  I am quite trusting in the Church's investigation of these things. Far more trusting than most institutions. Sure there is room for skepticism. Maybe her Parkinsons was cured overnight by purely physical causes which doctors don't understand and have never seen before. You're welcome to your views.

I was asked a question and I answered it.

I'd say naive. The Church has a vested interest in miracles. I actually credit them that they didn't claim this as a miracle yet. Probably because the potential backfire is huge if it emerges that she never had Parkinson's. As you yourself acknowledge though, there's plenty of room for skepticism. This is not an undisputable miracle even if she had Parkinson's and was cured instantaneously. If all the evidence for miracles is of this quality, you still believe? It's usually of even less quality actually, because this is a miracle with at least a subject who can be medically examined.

God who communicates through randomly curing some people of their diseases. I mean, he's all knowing right? So he must have heard of telephones?

I also find your explanation for why he allows suffering to be slightly bullshit. All is fine *after people die*. How do you know? Through blind faith?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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