Why Trump is Obsessed w/ Voter Fraud
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30-01-2017, 09:47 AM
RE: Why Trump is Obsessed w/ Voter Fraud
(29-01-2017 10:31 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Trump won the electoral college. We use it to guarantee that one large state cannot control the other states. It's a fair system. To win the presidency, a candidate must win over multiple states with different values and beliefs, instead of focusing on one or two large similar states.

This is a lie. In fact the Electoral College is supposed to roughly mirror the populations of the states. This is in turn mirrored in the Representatives and senators from each state - the number of senators essentially providing a minimal baseline number for each state.

Diluting any state's voting power was never the motivation for the Electoral College. While the fixed number of senators can lend credence to such a notion, that is not the motivation - the motivation is to have a minimum number of Electors for each state. States with larger populations, and thus Representatives will have more Electors - directly contradicting your claim about the reasons for the Electoral College.

Quote:Article II

Section 1. The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows
Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

https://www.archives.gov/federal-registe...sions.html

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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30-01-2017, 09:54 AM
RE: Why Trump is Obsessed w/ Voter Fraud
(30-01-2017 09:47 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(29-01-2017 10:31 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Trump won the electoral college. We use it to guarantee that one large state cannot control the other states. It's a fair system. To win the presidency, a candidate must win over multiple states with different values and beliefs, instead of focusing on one or two large similar states.

This is a lie. In fact the Electoral College is supposed to roughly mirror the populations of the states. This is in turn mirrored in the Representatives and senators from each state - the number of senators essentially providing a minimal baseline number for each state.

Diluting any state's voting power was never the motivation for the Electoral College. While the fixed number of senators can lend credence to such a notion, that is not the motivation - the motivation is to have a minimum number of Electors for each state. States with larger populations, and thus Representatives will have more Electors - directly contradicting your claim about the reasons for the Electoral College.

Quote:Article II

Section 1. The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America. He shall hold his Office during the Term of four Years, and, together with the Vice President, chosen for the same Term, be elected, as follows
Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector.

https://www.archives.gov/federal-registe...sions.html

LDH's statement was a bit oversimplified, but not entirely incorrect. A state's electoral votes are roughly proportional to its population, but not quite. Adding the senators to the number gives the smaller states a disproportionately large "say". A vote in Wyoming or Rhode Island is worth significantly more (in terms of electoral votes) than a vote in California or New York. That's enough to skew an election when a bunch of smaller states vote the same way (which is exactly what happened in the most recent election). If it were strictly proportional to population, Clinton would have won.
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30-01-2017, 10:14 AM
RE: Why Trump is Obsessed w/ Voter Fraud
(30-01-2017 09:54 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(30-01-2017 09:47 AM)tomilay Wrote:  This is a lie. In fact the Electoral College is supposed to roughly mirror the populations of the states. This is in turn mirrored in the Representatives and senators from each state - the number of senators essentially providing a minimal baseline number for each state.

Diluting any state's voting power was never the motivation for the Electoral College. While the fixed number of senators can lend credence to such a notion, that is not the motivation - the motivation is to have a minimum number of Electors for each state. States with larger populations, and thus Representatives will have more Electors - directly contradicting your claim about the reasons for the Electoral College.


https://www.archives.gov/federal-registe...sions.html

LDH's statement was a bit oversimplified, but not entirely incorrect. A state's electoral votes are roughly proportional to its population, but not quite. Adding the senators to the number gives the smaller states a disproportionately large "say". A vote in Wyoming or Rhode Island is worth significantly more (in terms of electoral votes) than a vote in California or New York. That's enough to skew an election when a bunch of smaller states vote the same way (which is exactly what happened in the most recent election). If it were strictly proportional to population, Clinton would have won.

I agree with what your observation - but not the conclusion. You are conflating the unintended effect for the actual motivation. The goal was a baseline Electoral vote for each state. The idea being that the Presidential election was X different elections(X being the number of states at any given point).

The fixed number of senators give the states a standard baseline - each state had to have a say and that was how this was achieved. It was not intended to dilute any other state's say except by happenstance. The weight of each state is provided by the number of Representatives.

At the time it was formulated, population discrepancies like those between Wyoming and California may not have been anticipated.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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30-01-2017, 10:23 AM
RE: Why Trump is Obsessed w/ Voter Fraud
(30-01-2017 10:14 AM)tomilay Wrote:  
(30-01-2017 09:54 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  LDH's statement was a bit oversimplified, but not entirely incorrect. A state's electoral votes are roughly proportional to its population, but not quite. Adding the senators to the number gives the smaller states a disproportionately large "say". A vote in Wyoming or Rhode Island is worth significantly more (in terms of electoral votes) than a vote in California or New York. That's enough to skew an election when a bunch of smaller states vote the same way (which is exactly what happened in the most recent election). If it were strictly proportional to population, Clinton would have won.

I agree with what your observation - but not the conclusion. You are conflating the unintended effect for the actual motivation. The goal was a baseline Electoral vote for each state. The idea being that the Presidential election was X different elections(X being the number of states at any given point).

The fixed number of senators give the states a standard baseline - each state had to have a say and that was how this was achieved. It was not intended to dilute any other state's say except by happenstance. The weight of each state is provided by the number of Representatives.

At the time it was formulated, population discrepancies like those between Wyoming and California may not have been anticipated.

I don't know enough to argue that point. Some day I intend to read the collected Federalist Papers, but for now, I can't say what their intention was.
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30-01-2017, 12:21 PM
RE: Why Trump is Obsessed w/ Voter Fraud
(30-01-2017 04:06 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(29-01-2017 11:59 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  He's obsessed with voter fraud because he lost the popular vote and can't understand why 3million more people like Hillary over him.

In all fairness to our new President, I also can't figure out why 3 million more people like Hillary Clinton than, well, anyone else in the politics game.

It must be devastating to realize that you're less popular, overall, than her. In the parts of the country from whence I hail, her name has been used as a pejorative for almost 25 years, now.

I particularly like Hillary Clinton. I think she'd have made a fantastic POTUS, personally.
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