Why We Must Fight
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11-04-2013, 11:30 PM
RE: Why We Must Fight
Is the world population predominantly atheist? *pines for the correct answer*

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11-04-2013, 11:31 PM
RE: Why We Must Fight
I don't take "rape" lightly, and I don't joke about it. I have a very close family member that was hurt and it's something that she has survived and I look up to her. She is one of the strongest people I've ever known.

When I read the OP, I didn't think ONLY about the "rape" aspect. I read it and put it into context. I know that the word can also be used to explain something that has been "abducted" or "changing the natural order..." I think of the word "violate."("The rape of the countryside.") The word can be used in many different ways OTHER than the more commonly thought of "molestation upon another."

We can say that the poster was stating that it is wrong that a person's family can take away the individual's right to question the world around them. They are fed the "truth" from only one perspective and not allowed to see anything from another point of view; The child has been taught only one thing their entire life.

Having said all that, I didn't see anything wrong with him stating it is "intellectual rape."

"It was life, often unsatisfying, frequently cruel, usually boring, sometimes beautiful, once in awhile exhilarating." -Stephen King
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11-04-2013, 11:45 PM
RE: Why We Must Fight
(11-04-2013 10:21 PM)Ghost Wrote:  This rhetoric of intellectual rape is disgusting.

I know women who have been raped. To equate a parent teaching their child something you don't agree with to a rape is sick in the Nth degree.

I'm not crazy about the term either, even though I believe it to be accurate. The common definition of rape that springs to mind is not the only definition of the word. But most people don't see that way and therefore I dislike it even though I personally understand it's meaning.

The OP's story is sad and disturbing. I can't back this up but I suspect that a majority of home-schooling is done for religious reasons. I would also guess that it is practiced by the most extreme practitioners of religion. This sickens me.

Not all situations are like this of course. I know highly educated, non-religious couples who have home-schooled their children in their earlier years while insuring their kids had interaction with other home-schooled kids, joined clubs, sport etc. Their children are brilliant, well-adjusted and coped well when joining the regular school system. They even excepted their inferior classmates without much trouble. Wink It can work extremely well and it's a hell of a lot of work and sacrifice. It is indeed the exception. But that's not what we're talking about here.

So how to fight against the worst examples, which I believe are a large proportion of the cases, without infringing upon the rights of those who use home-schooling well? Unfortunately, I don't have an answer to that. Here in Canada we have publicly funded Catholic schools. Getting rid of them is probably a better (in terms of sheer numbers) fight, but certainly just as difficult.

"Which is more likely: that the whole natural order is suspended, or that a jewish minx should tell a lie?"- David Hume
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12-04-2013, 12:00 AM
RE: Why We Must Fight
(10-04-2013 12:18 PM)JAH Wrote:  How people will become is determined more by themselves than outside agency.

I can only partially agree.

A person who might decide based on "themselves" to be an atheist won't do so if this person is raised with only one possible mindset, brainwashed from the moment they begin learning to speak. Sure, maybe eventually, after decades of subjugation and thought control and anxiety and fear and doubt and irrationality.

Sure, eventually many such people with find their way out of their delusion.

The "outside agency" in this case is pervasive, invasive, total subjugation through tools such as fear and ignorance. People can and do beat it, but only when they find the strength within themselves to question the controlling authority, explore their doubts, seek outside information, and rise up out of the depths of their submission.

Me, I'd rather find a way to dispel the illusion permanently so nobody has to live like that for any length of time. A forlorn wish, no doubt, but a wish all the same.

So while you're right that people can overcome religion by themselves, it's far preferable that they never succumb to it in the first place, never get brainwashed, never have anything to overcome.

Everyone would be happier.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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12-04-2013, 12:09 AM
RE: Why We Must Fight
I agree with you, Aseptic Skeptic. My indoctrination was fairly mild by most standards and also rather ineffective, but it still took me a 20+ years and a lot of work and struggle to rid myself of it. The process still continues to be honest. I can only imagine the damage that is done to those who had it worse than me. Many will spend an entire lifetime and never fully recover.

"Which is more likely: that the whole natural order is suspended, or that a jewish minx should tell a lie?"- David Hume
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12-04-2013, 01:16 AM (This post was last modified: 12-04-2013 01:20 AM by Misanthropik.)
RE: Why We Must Fight
(11-04-2013 10:21 PM)Ghost Wrote:  This rhetoric of intellectual rape is disgusting.

I know women who have been raped. To equate a parent teaching their child something you don't agree with to a rape is sick in the Nth degree.

They are invading their child's mind and teaching them demonstrable falsehoods and, in turn, forcing them (entirely without their consent) to view the world in a very specific way. This will effect the way they experience the world around them, and will even effect how they feel. I too was once a victim of such mental abuse.

Call me sick if you wish. I'm not the one defiling a child's developing mind with intellectual poison without their consent.

For the record, I too know women who have been raped. (You don't build a peer-based sex club without having a few fuck-ups in the mix) I also know women who have been mentally scarred by their childhood indoctrination. I recall having to physically console one of them as she sobbed because she can't shake the fear of a Hell she no longer believes in. Don't you fucking dare sit there and tell me my comparison is out of line. You are quite mistaken.

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
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12-04-2013, 01:16 AM
RE: Why We Must Fight
It’s a free world, so churches have a right to advertise to adults, but when they impose their ideas on young children they’re playing dirty. Youngsters are prime targets because it’s easy to sell them mythical nonsense. They’re uncritical, trusting, sensitive and pliable; suitable soil in which to sow a seed. Churches own schools for this very purpose.

Churches are like a schoolyard bully preying on little kids for their lunch money. Children’s heads are filled with prayers, hymns, and stories about heaven, hell, Jesus, sins, death and guardian angels. Behavior is judged in Christian terms, and they’re told Satan is a bad guy out to get them. Hell is a concept deliberately designed to create distress. To teach it to children is just plain sick, and in my opinion amounts to child abuse. Junior is offered Jesus as his best buddy, and some church people think that’s justification. Yet Jesus can’t stop children’s nightmares. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzGVateOWto ).

Christmas toys and Easter eggs, deliberately designed to delight children, are used to sell the Jesus story.

Convictions inculcated in children can become so embedded in their subconscious young people can’t shake them. The consequences can include paranoia, anxiety, poor self-expression, guilt about sexuality, poor self esteem and hurt due to hypocrisy and prejudices. These problems often don’t become apparent until later in life.

Well-meaning Christian teachers and parents don’t realize churches are using them to fill children’s minds with so much superstitious nonsense it makes the advertising on television look small time. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTedvV6oZjo). This promotional blitz has one aim - to develop brand loyalty to a church. Brainwashed kids become compliant consumers, pliable people willing to part with their cash. They help indoctrinate the next generation and the cycle continues. Churches have refined the system that keeps them powerful by targeting youngsters. They make the corporations of the commercial world look like amateurs.

I think a fundamental feature of an exceptional education is to give children a mental picture of their world that’s in tune with reality. Children should also be taught how, not what, to think. They need encouragement to explore. They should be told that they control their own destiny, and that they must be open-minded. Christianity undermines all of this. To teach children to find solutions by praying to an imaginary judgmental sky buddy is a subtle form of child abuse.

I think parents should question the use of repetition in prayers and hymns. Surely if the teaching is that terrific, it should sell itself, and be taught without trickery.
If parents insist their kids be coached in Christianity, why not teach it when children are experienced enough to reason for themselves? There’s no need to indoctrinate and prejudice young minds. Geography, trigonometry, and economics are universally regarded as valuable, but nobody believes a five-year-old should be saturated with them.

The fact is that most church leaders know it’s imperative to get inside little one’s minds early. Their agenda is the institution’s growth, and the child’s education is secondary. That’s inexcusable from organizations claiming to promote people’s welfare.

All youngsters deserve nothing but the best. What makes kids happy, well adjusted, with a healthy self – esteem, is love, gentle discipline and stimulation. Consider the happily radiant children found in close-knit communities who have never heard of God or Jesus. Human love and interactions with people are real. Nonsense about an ancient God with odd ideas, whom they can’t see, hear or touch, isn’t.

Some people may accuse me of being cynical, yet have they considered church greed and the reality of indoctrination? I say a culture of church loyalty has been so heavily stamped into some people they can’t cope with their church losing little clients. Consider what most Christian parents would think about another denomination or the church in another suburb teaching their children. The dogma is almost identical, yet they’d be put out, because a “Christian education” is all about shoring up the numbers in their own church.
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12-04-2013, 01:20 AM
RE: Why We Must Fight
Aseptic Skeptic, This is a difficult one I used my daughter-in-fact as an opening for an opinion not as an exemplar.

My most important point is that trying to control how people raise their children could lead to people controlling how you raise your children. A close friend (almost 50 years) raised two very beautiful daughters in ways I would not have. They are both more or less ok, as are my own children. I have no right to question what their parents did.

I personally raised my own children trying to instill a very anti-capitalist political view point. How many in the US would disapprove of that. One can understand when parents abuse their children in emotional ways and hate it, to try to prevent it is very difficult and opens oneself to that same prevention.
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12-04-2013, 01:29 AM
RE: Why We Must Fight
Were you meaning to reply to Mark Fulton?

I don't want to control how people raise their children, for the "golden rule" reason, as you say, that I don't want anyone imposing such control over me and my children.

What I was referring to is the idea of dispelling the god delusion by educating the people of this world to the point that nobody needs religion anymore, so nobody finds any reason to indoctrinate children because the parents themselves are not subject to any religious delusion either.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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12-04-2013, 01:31 AM
RE: Why We Must Fight
(12-04-2013 01:29 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  Were you meaning to reply to Mark Fulton?

I don't want to control how people raise their children, for the "golden rule" reason, as you say, that I don't want anyone imposing such control over me and my children.

What I was referring to is the idea of dispelling the god delusion by educating the people of this world to the point that nobody needs religion anymore, so nobody finds any reason to indoctrinate children because the parents themselves are not subject to any religious delusion either.

This has been my point as well.

Restated for the few who have taken me completely out of context. Dodgy

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
Ridi, Pagliaccio, sul tuo amore infranto! Ridi del duol, che t'avvelena il cor!
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