Why a hard approach in trying to convey a message?
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22-04-2011, 04:03 PM
 
RE: Why a hard approach in trying to convey a message?
I like the idea of a gentle trainer, like that featured in the OP.
There was a dog training facility near my house some time ago, until they sold their property for highway expansion, that use to use these chain type collars that had backwards barb like things on, so it would dig into the dog's throat when tugged by the leash. Sadistic!

I do like the analogy though. Wink Because I think the ultra right wing radical dog walkers are the one's who want that type of backwards barb "lead" to be fitted to every pup on earth! It's their mission in fact.

While those who walk gently in their own confidence as a dog on their true path, tend to walk their bark/talk rather well and by example. Besides that, if someone wanted to answer all those questions about that gentle lead, all they'd have to do is make up a dog tee shirt, like they have as option at sites like Zazzle.com and Cafepress.com, that reads: No it doesn't hurt. Yes, it's a gentle guide. And of course I love my dog, that's why I care to know where he/she's going while we are guardians one for the other on the journey.
I like the idea of a gentle trainer, like that featured in the OP.
There was a dog training facility near my house some time ago, until they sold their property for highway expansion, that use to use these chain type collars that had backwards barb like things on, so it would dig into the dog's throat when tugged by the leash. Sadistic!

I do like the analogy though. Wink Because I think the ultra right wing radical dog walkers are the one's who want that type of backwards barb "lead" to be fitted to every pup on earth! It's their mission in fact.

While those who walk gently in their own confidence as a dog on their true path, tend to walk their bark/talk rather well and by example. Besides that, if someone wanted to answer all those questions about that gentle lead, all they'd have to do is make up a dog teeshirt, like they have as option at sites like Zazzle.com and Cafepress.com, that reads: No it doesn't hurt. Yes, it's a gentle guide. And of course I love my dog, that's why I care to know where he/she's going while we are guardians one for the other on the journey.
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22-04-2011, 09:38 PM
RE: Why a hard approach in trying to convey a message?
(22-04-2011 03:08 PM)TrainWreck Wrote:  A hundred verbal commands???
Do you have a list?
If you have a list and a description of the technique imposed to get the dog to respond to each command, even if it tends to be a hierarchy list of subcommands - I assure you, you have some publishing potential.

Even if you can break it down into some general commands that lead to more detailed commands that may need modifying for different dog demeanors

I would actually very much like to write a book. I just don't think I'm the book writing type, but hey, you never know right? Mostly the list of commands is in my head. And many commands are definitely combination commands. (ie "beer" means #1 open the fridge with the towel on the door #2 pick up a can from the bottom shelf #3 close the fridge #4 bring the beer into the room and put it on the table) So I suppose "beer" is not a true command so can't be counted, but the four individual actions are.

You'll notice I talk a lot about "communicating" with your dog. Much of my technique is based on not only making sure the dog knows what you are saying, but also understanding what she is saying to you. There's a great book called "how to speak dog" that I recommend to anyone genuinely interested. I don't agree with all the methods, but the information about dog "language" is excellent.

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23-04-2011, 09:42 AM (This post was last modified: 23-04-2011 10:14 AM by TrainWreck.)
RE: Why a hard approach in trying to convey a message?
(22-04-2011 09:38 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  I would actually very much like to write a book. I just don't think I'm the book writing type, but hey, you never know right? Mostly the list of commands is in my head. And many commands are definitely combination commands.
try Keeping a journal, especially of that of your commercial work with clients's dogs. Nothing major, small notes about each session. After you get a collection of notes, you may recognize that you can organize the notes into a template form with common descriptors, making it easier to make notes, like a doctor does. And then next thing you know you convert the notes into essays and then organize that mess and word process it and turn it into an eBook at Amozon for $9.99. next thing you know, Obama's IRS classifies you, "a Republican tax cheat."

(22-04-2011 09:38 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  You'll notice I talk a lot about "communicating" with your dog. Much of my technique is based on not only making sure the dog knows what you are saying, but also understanding what she is saying to you. There's a great book called "how to speak dog" that I recommend to anyone genuinely interested. I don't agree with all the methods, but the information about dog "language" is excellent.
Yeah, well, I'll be sure to check that title.
Let's see if I can find you in the dog forums.
Tell us, how you find the dog forums to be - lots of knowledgeable people who's ideas you have used, or are you the #1 guru?

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23-04-2011, 01:28 PM
RE: Why a hard approach in trying to convey a message?
(22-04-2011 05:00 AM)The_observer Wrote:  Why is the first thing people think that a hard and aggressive approach is the best? Not only with dogs, even among themselves and their children. I don't get it!
I was turning this idea over in my head today and I thought of Immanuel Kant. Near the end of The Foundation of the Metaphysics of Morals, he describes two groups of people: Those ruled by reason, and those ruled by emotion. He says that the reasonable person is the kind you want to converse with. They do so calmly and intelligently, and normally can either be convinced on your position, convinces you of their position or you two agree to disagree because you can't convince the other of your position with the reason/logic/evidence provided. Those ruled by emotion are the yellers. They are the people who memorize talking points from talking heads rather than examining their own beliefs and figuring out what really works for them and why. Kant says we want to avoid these people, and the reason he provided was this: The only thing that persuades these people is force, aggression and violence. Perhaps you are encountering too many of this type of people.

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23-04-2011, 02:40 PM
RE: Why a hard approach in trying to convey a message?
The dog part was really interesting though...

It might sound strange but, I learned a lot about perception and my place in the world just by observing my dog and by training it (positive training trough clicking/treat).

Dogs are emotion driven, they don't reason. Dogs taught me to differ between emotion and reason. Dogs are also nr. 1 specialists when it comes to human body language. I'm always baffled when I see that my dog reads my emotions and responds to them.

I (we Smile) followed a short course on sent-tracking. There I was made aware of the body language a dog has. I get a real kick out of watching her while she's on track. It's like getting a peek inside a secret world. Heart

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I wonder if there 2 concurrent successful survival strategies in play in natural selection. One that benefits emotions and one that benefits reason...

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23-04-2011, 03:33 PM
RE: Why a hard approach in trying to convey a message?
(23-04-2011 09:42 AM)TrainWreck Wrote:  
(22-04-2011 09:38 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  I would actually very much like to write a book. I just don't think I'm the book writing type, but hey, you never know right? Mostly the list of commands is in my head. And many commands are definitely combination commands.
try Keeping a journal, especially of that of your commercial work with clients's dogs. Nothing major, small notes about each session. After you get a collection of notes, you may recognize that you can organize the notes into a template form with common descriptors, making it easier to make notes, like a doctor does. And then next thing you know you convert the notes into essays and then organize that mess and word process it and turn it into an eBook at Amozon for $9.99. next thing you know, Obama's IRS classifies you, "a Republican tax cheat."

(22-04-2011 09:38 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  You'll notice I talk a lot about "communicating" with your dog. Much of my technique is based on not only making sure the dog knows what you are saying, but also understanding what she is saying to you. There's a great book called "how to speak dog" that I recommend to anyone genuinely interested. I don't agree with all the methods, but the information about dog "language" is excellent.
Yeah, well, I'll be sure to check that title.
Let's see if I can find you in the dog forums.
Tell us, how you find the dog forums to be - lots of knowledgeable people who's ideas you have used, or are you the #1 guru?

A journal would probably be a really good idea. Especially for me, since I tend to be disorganized. I do most of my training in the winter (too busy with the farm to take any new clients in the summer) so maybe this fall I'll get that going.

I'm actually not on any dog forums. Truth is, this and one other forum (permaculture) are the only forums I visit. I make it a point to learn from others though, so any trainer I meet I try to take something away. I wouldn't call myself a Guru, but I must admit, I know my stuff when it comes to the mutts!

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23-04-2011, 07:31 PM
RE: Why a hard approach in trying to convey a message?
(23-04-2011 02:40 PM)The_observer Wrote:  @cfhmagnet
I wonder if there 2 concurrent successful survival strategies in play in natural selection. One that benefits emotions and one that benefits reason...
It's possible. I had really only contemplated it from a philosophical viewpoint, but a biological/natural selection viewpoint is an interesting take on it. You do, of course, have to suppose that it is true that these are two categories of humans. You say they may be survival strategies, I wonder if it's just an accident of genetics that certain brain chemicals dominate in each type of person. I'll have to think on that one.

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25-05-2011, 05:14 PM
RE: Why a hard approach in trying to convey a message?
Now that I have been looking, I have seen the leash several times, including a situation where the dog was approached by another dog. The dog with the gentle trainer made no reaction to the approaching dog, and the owner did not appear to have had to do anything as the approaching dog was smaller and just barked as its owner held it back.

And just today, I saw a Labador resisting at a corner; the owner detached the leash from the gentle trainer and attached it to the collar and pulled the dog.

Since, I have recognized that I am a Cynic, I have been very observant of dogs - I'm trying to decide which breed I will get first - I need quiet, so a Jack Russell is out of the question, but I like their character. I am considering a Beagle, or a fancy terrier - I like the kind with beards and mustaches.

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
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25-05-2011, 08:31 PM (This post was last modified: 25-05-2011 08:37 PM by Stark Raving.)
RE: Why a hard approach in trying to convey a message?
Beagles tend to be loud. Lots of howling as opposed to barking, but loud none the less.

Really, (if you want my opinion that is) the first thing I tell people when they are looking for a dog is to pretend they are blind. Never buy a dog because you like the way it looks. Buy one for the way it acts. Base your decision on character. If you like Jacks for their character, I say go ahead and get one. Just make sure you are well informed on how best to train it, and what it's tendancies are like, both good and bad. That means finding out from sources other than breeders. (Breeders will always tell you what's great about the breed, but rarely will they tell you the downsides). You can train a dog to not follow a specific tendancy, ie Jacks can be trained to be quiet, so long as you're willing to put in the work. If you've proven anything here, you've proven you are tenatious and determined. I suspect you would make an excellent trainer, and think that if you like Jacks you should take on the challenge of training one.

A footnote: A dog that makes no reaction to another dog that is approaching it is not a good thing, even though it appears to be a perfectly trained dog. The appropriate reaction would be for the dog to become alert, and to look to it's handler for a reaction. If the handler remains calm, the dog will do the same. But no reaction is different than a calm reaction. No reaction means the dog is afaid of the consequences of reacting. A calm, alert, inquisitive reaction is a sign of a dog that has those very qualities.

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26-05-2011, 01:33 PM (This post was last modified: 26-05-2011 01:40 PM by TrainWreck.)
RE: Why a hard approach in trying to convey a message?
You're putting me to sleep . . .
It's amazing how much detail we will put in to something that we are confident of our expertize - isn't it?

Unbelievable, I didn't even read this post until I finished ripping you to shreds over on the other thread. It amazes me just how sharp I am with this reason stuff.

"howling as opposed to barking"

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
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