Why agnosticism?
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30-08-2015, 08:45 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(30-08-2015 05:09 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Those videos suck. Tongue

By agnostic, do you mean "knowledge is incomplete" or "god is unknowable?" Because those things are always the case. The problem I have with "agnosticism" is that many "practitioners" get so caught up in their preconceived notions of intellectual integrity that they end up actually not saying anything, like Leo just did.

For me, I would say that agnosticism is simply "I don't know." I wouldn't claim that anything is unknowable, because maybe we just don't have the methods to know it now, but who's to say what methods, and what knowledge, might become available in the future.

I also strongly disagree that Leo didn't say anything. What he didn't do is feed you a load of bs, and perhaps that's why you didn't like it?

Should he claim that god is doesn't exist? Should he believe that god doesn't exist?

Have you ever considered the notion of cleansing yourself of your beliefs that don't hold up?
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30-08-2015, 08:57 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
What'd ya do, go away and smoke a joint laced with hostility, or what? Are you two people on the same account? Blink

I ain't telling Leo what to believe. What I believe is that his interviewer was too fawning, and that his marketing strategy prevented him from elaborating on the point.

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30-08-2015, 08:57 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(30-08-2015 08:45 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  I also strongly disagree that Leo didn't say anything. What he didn't do is feed you a load of bs, and perhaps that's why you didn't like it?

Should he claim that god is doesn't exist? Should he believe that god doesn't exist?

Have you ever considered the notion of cleansing yourself of your beliefs that don't hold up?

Good ol' agnosticism, judging people since the word was invented. Rolleyes

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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30-08-2015, 09:07 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(30-08-2015 07:29 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(30-08-2015 07:27 AM)epronovost Wrote:  I found very ironic the idea of a man who doesn't want to play sides in a conflict between two cultural groups and is afraid of being told what to do, make a video to promote his line of thinking thus telling people what to do. I wonder if he realised it.

It's more like he's teaching you "how to think" rather than "what to do"......Drinking Beverage

You are aware that the two are far from being exclusive and in fact go hand in hand...Drinking Beverage
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30-08-2015, 09:34 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(30-08-2015 08:01 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(30-08-2015 07:56 AM)morondog Wrote:  Fuck off. Rolleyes

Sorry, I couldn't resist. I was lol'ing. Big Grin

I was chuckling myself ... because uh ... I nearly whipped out some silly stringy thingys to tie this all up in a vibrating bow but, figured it might shock the children. Dodgy
***

Speaking of children ...
Carrying a fully fleshed identity arround is all the rage for the trendy, hipster, 'new thing' kinda guy. When the monkey is ready to run naked with the rest of us, he'll toss away those designer labels. If full-on Matt Finney is still hanging on to his coat of many colors that his mother made for him, who are 'we' to point him to an even more comfortable wardrobe?

That would be the 'royal we', by the way. Dodgy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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30-08-2015, 11:16 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(30-08-2015 08:57 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  What'd ya do, go away and smoke a joint laced with hostility, or what? Are you two people on the same account? Blink

I ain't telling Leo what to believe. What I believe is that his interviewer was too fawning, and that his marketing strategy prevented him from elaborating on the point.

That's fair, I'm sorry. Sometimes (or maybe quite often), I'll post something without really thinking through how it will sound to the other person.

I really am sorry, and I don't want this thread to turn into another pissing match....that totally defeats the purpose, and I do appreciate your feedback. In the future I'll try to make my challenges more gentle. Cool

my bad....
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30-08-2015, 11:24 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(30-08-2015 09:34 AM)kim Wrote:  
(30-08-2015 08:01 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Sorry, I couldn't resist. I was lol'ing. Big Grin

I was chuckling myself ... because uh ... I nearly whipped out some silly stringy thingys to tie this all up in a vibrating bow but, figured it might shock the children. Dodgy
***

Speaking of children ...
Carrying a fully fleshed identity arround is all the rage for the trendy, hipster, 'new thing' kinda guy. When the monkey is ready to run naked with the rest of us, he'll toss away those designer labels. If full-on Matt Finney is still hanging on to his coat of many colors that his mother made for him, who are 'we' to point him to an even more comfortable wardrobe?

That would be the 'royal we', by the way. Dodgy

If you think I give a shit about labels, you couldn't be further from the truth. Obviously if we want to communicate at all, we have to agree on some definitions. It's necessary evil if you will....

I only started this topic because I think many atheists are making the same mistake that the religious make, and that is jumping to a conclusion. My criticism is of the 6.9'ers who are just as certain that there's nothing, as the religious are that there's something, when the truth is that no one knows the answer to these questions. It's a mistake in critical reasoning, and a mistake that should be avoided if one wants to find the truth.

my 2 cents
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30-08-2015, 12:01 PM (This post was last modified: 30-08-2015 12:33 PM by houseofcantor.)
RE: Why agnosticism?
(30-08-2015 11:24 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  My criticism is of the 6.9'ers who are just as certain that there's nothing, as the religious are that there's something, when the truth is that no one knows the answer to these questions.

Ahhh... so it's that fucking Dawkins and that fucking scale. Rolleyes

You know what really mows my goat? This motherfucker makes an integer based gradient, then turns around and says, I'm a 6.9. Big Grin

I'm a 7. In my case it is faith based, so you don't have to worry about me being right; but I do think an more objective argument can be made for 7. Let us make some conjectures. Things that exist are self-evident. Religion exists. There's a Torah, a Bible, a Koran, an Ani Papyrus. Why should we be compelled to accept the existence of God over Osiris? Why would religion exist if god was self-evident?

If there is certainty that no one knows the answers to these questions, why ask them? For myself, it is better to present a considered, reasoned speculation rather than say "I don't know," if I actually think I know something.

For my audience, if I don't declare "my Gwynnies," they're gonna go off looking for another god. And we all know how that turns out. I care more about reaching an understanding of who we are than of being "right."

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30-08-2015, 12:25 PM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(30-08-2015 07:24 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(30-08-2015 07:15 AM)daniel1948 Wrote:  The terms atheist, theist, and agnostic all deal with matters of belief, not knowledge. It is not possible to know whether or not there is a magical man outside of space and time that no physical experiment can observe, therefore if lack of knowledge is the test, everyone is by definition an agnostic, and the term becomes meaningless. A theist is a person who believes there is a god. Some theists claim to "know" there is a god, but they simply fail to understand the distinction between belief and knowledge.

An agnostic, therefore, is a person who has no belief regarding the existence of god, even though the etymology of the word is from Greek "without knowledge." It's a case of the modern meaning of a word differing from its root.

What some people call a "soft atheist," i.e., someone who merely does not hold a belief that there is a god, is actually an agnostic. "Without belief," as explained above.

An atheist is a person who believes there is no god, since the terms all refer to belief, rather than knowledge (which is impossible).

I am an atheist. I believe (though I cannot prove) that there is no god. I also disbelieve in angels, demons, The Devil, Santa Claus, the Easter bunny, the tooth fairy, the so-called "energy vortexes" of Sedona, AZ, astrology, perpetual-motion machines, and every other form of religious and quasi-religious crap that nutters invent on a regular basis.

Interesting....

Perhaps the biggest part of the problem is that we define these words so differently. By your definition, atheism and agnosticism are incompatible, and that's the way the author of the first video defines them as well, but I have always considered atheism to include everyone who is not a theist. It would be nice we could all reach consensus on definitions. Consider

Actually...the only ''problem'' is theism. Not atheism or agnosticism. These terms only came into existence as a response TO theism. There is no need to add in a supernatural realm into your life. We only think we do, because it's been such a part of history and our culture.

Be true to yourself. Heart
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30-08-2015, 01:19 PM
RE: Why agnosticism?
For me, it's not so much being agnostic about a fictional character (god), but being agnostic about the big questions. Why is there a universe? What is the origin of existence? Is there an origin to existence? Is it possible that our universe was created intentionally? Could beings (advanced aliens) from another universe have created/caused our universe? Could there be some purpose to existence? If there's no purpose or cause at all to our universe, I have to admit to myself that that seems just as bizarre as if there is a creator, etc.....

I just leave the answer to these questions at "I don't know". I would be dishonest if I said, "I don't know what the origin of existence is, but I know it isn't god." The true answer is very simply "I don't know".
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