Why agnosticism?
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31-08-2015, 09:10 PM
RE: Why agnosticism?
I really don't see the supposed issue proclaimed in that 1st video about do you believe being a loaded question. To even say, I don't have a believe... is equivalent to then saying no still.

In even the analogy, to say No I don't believe my mom thinks i'm gay isn't a loaded qualm of you proclaiming you're gay. Saying no isn't some proclamation of if you are gay or not. It is irrelevant information to the question which stands alone.

A better analogy might be able to be used to demonstrate the point but that one was horribly constructed. The "are you still beating your wife?" is actually a loaded question. The ones he gives aren't loaded or tricky get you into a tough spot questions.

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31-08-2015, 09:15 PM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(31-08-2015 08:34 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  [quoting]
But is God really only as probable as a tooth fairy?

...

Beyond the origins of the universe and our inability to wrap our heads around the limits (or lack thereof) of time and space, we can't even understand how the most fundamental building blocks of matter and energy operate on the sub-atomic level. ... We're not qualified to have strong opinions about God and the universe because we don't know anything yet.

To clarify my snarky dismissal: this doesn't mean God (hint to the author: first, define "God"). That's not what ignorance suggests. "I don't know" must, if applied honestly, apply to conceptions of any "supernatural" actor, all the way up the ladder to deism.

The difference underlying virtually every organised religion is that divine intervention is not limited to the realm of the unknown. It is - purportedly - present, observable, and demonstrable. Whereas the categorical "I don't know" must apply - if one is being honest - to any quality of any putative outside entity. With "I don't know" as a foundation, there is no possible way to rationally come to any conclusion regarding any "supernatural" entity about which one necessarily knows nothing by the very premises of the argument.

And if one's final conclusions are not borne of rationality in the first place, why even go down this road?

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31-08-2015, 09:41 PM
RE: Why agnosticism?
I do not believe it is humanly possible to know whether or not I am an agnostic.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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01-09-2015, 05:41 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(31-08-2015 09:03 PM)cjlr Wrote:  tl;dr:
[Image: atheists.png]

lol funny cartoon....

It's really not about superiority at all though. It's that the bs meter pegs to full scale when 0's and 7's (dawkins scale) start talking about their knowledge of god. Knowledge I'm certain they don't have.....Cool

Theists try to define god into existence, while atheists try to define god out of existence, while agnostics claim that both sides don't know Jack Schitt. Tongue
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01-09-2015, 05:51 AM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2015 05:57 AM by Matt Finney.)
RE: Why agnosticism?
(31-08-2015 09:10 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I really don't see the supposed issue proclaimed in that 1st video about do you believe being a loaded question. To even say, I don't have a believe... is equivalent to then saying no still.

In even the analogy, to say No I don't believe my mom thinks i'm gay isn't a loaded qualm of you proclaiming you're gay. Saying no isn't some proclamation of if you are gay or not. It is irrelevant information to the question which stands alone.

A better analogy might be able to be used to demonstrate the point but that one was horribly constructed. The "are you still beating your wife?" is actually a loaded question. The ones he gives aren't loaded or tricky get you into a tough spot questions.

"Does your mother know your gay?"

answer - "no" - implies "no, my mother doesn't know I'm gay"

answer - "yes" - implies "yes, my mother knows I'm gay"

If you're not gay, a simple yes or no won't do.

And many people don't see the difference between these two statements:

1. I don't believe god exists.
2. I believe god doesn't exist.

Number 1 is compatible with having no belief at all, while number 2 isn't, but a lot of people consider the statements to be equivalent. Depends on culture and understanding of language....

The author assumes that most people take them to be equivalent, which may be true? I know that tomasia once argued that most people using everyday language will equate the two. Most philosophers on the other hand will note a difference, but with most people not philosophizing much, it helps to explain.
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01-09-2015, 05:56 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
Being a flaming nutbag, I've got some shit pretty easy. In this case, remembering standing before the creator of the universe and accepting the title of prophet allows me to state with complete confidence that god does not exist. We've discussed it and are in agreement that it is currently the best marketing strategy. Even if one were to consider the "best evidence" - like in Idea's thread about quantum and digital physics and god - to take that to theism is to be fucking the dog. What should be obvious is that we have evolved to be independent operators. To use modern metaphysics in support of ancient superstition is not evolving.

To summarize in a more rational manner, I would not debate evolution with a creationist as if evolution were not an absolute certainty. Wink

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01-09-2015, 06:16 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(01-09-2015 05:51 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(31-08-2015 09:10 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I really don't see the supposed issue proclaimed in that 1st video about do you believe being a loaded question. To even say, I don't have a believe... is equivalent to then saying no still.

In even the analogy, to say No I don't believe my mom thinks i'm gay isn't a loaded qualm of you proclaiming you're gay. Saying no isn't some proclamation of if you are gay or not. It is irrelevant information to the question which stands alone.

A better analogy might be able to be used to demonstrate the point but that one was horribly constructed. The "are you still beating your wife?" is actually a loaded question. The ones he gives aren't loaded or tricky get you into a tough spot questions.

"Does your mother know your gay?"

answer - "no" - implies "no, my mother doesn't know I'm gay"

answer - "yes" - implies "yes, my mother knows I'm gay"

If you're not gay, a simple yes or no won't do.

And many people don't see the difference between these two statements:

1. I don't believe god exists.
2. I believe god doesn't exist.

Number 1 is compatible with having no belief at all, while number 2 isn't, but a lot of people consider the statements to be equivalent. Depends on culture and understanding of language....

The author assumes that most people take them to be equivalent, which may be true? I know that tomasia once argued that most people using everyday language will equate the two. Most philosophers on the other hand will note a difference, but with most people not philosophizing much, it helps to explain.

How do you not get that a simple NO does do. It only does if you assume MORE out of the exact wording supplied. There is no reason to infer it does. You're right it "implies" it. It doesn't mean that though you have to make an assumption to get to that point. There is no reason though to accept the implications and not take it for it's straightforward chance.

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01-09-2015, 07:59 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(01-09-2015 05:41 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  lol funny cartoon....

It's really not about superiority at all though. It's that the bs meter pegs to full scale when 0's and 7's (dawkins scale) start talking about their knowledge of god. Knowledge I'm certain they don't have.....Cool

Theists try to define god into existence, while atheists try to define god out of existence, while agnostics claim that both sides don't know Jack Schitt. Tongue

Atheism makes no claims and attempts no definitions, no matter how pedantically one defines it. I never try to define god. I simply ask that someone else give a meaningful definition before I am able to give a meaningful response. That has never happened. It doesn't take much to notice that all the attempts I've ever seen to either retreat into ineffable deism or collapse into blithering incoherence.

I freely admit to agnosticism on the part of a strictly unknowable deistic figure. My "belief" on the matter is, however, entirely irrelevant. By contrast I freely admit to a categorical rejection of several specific theistic claims I've had waved in my face.

It would be better for you to ask what people mean by their labels of self-identification, rather than merely assuming. For any statement of belief in god to be meaningful, god must be defined. I have never known any atheists to be the ones attempting to do that defining.

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01-09-2015, 08:01 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(01-09-2015 07:59 AM)cjlr Wrote:  I have never known any atheists to be the ones attempting to do that defining.

I feel so rejected. Sadcryface2

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01-09-2015, 08:04 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(01-09-2015 08:01 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(01-09-2015 07:59 AM)cjlr Wrote:  I have never known any atheists to be the ones attempting to do that defining.

I feel so rejected. Sadcryface2

Yabut, when you tell us your conception of the divine, you accept it. That's not atheism as I've ever understood it...
Big Grin

(you even make a better case than most!)

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