Why agnosticism?
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08-09-2015, 08:12 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(07-09-2015 07:58 PM)Free Wrote:  
(07-09-2015 07:03 PM)daniel1948 Wrote:  Anybody who thinks they KNOW whether or not there's a god, misunderstands the concept of knowledge. Nobody can know, therefore nobody does.

Why can't people know one way or the other?

What is the criteria we should use to determine existence or non existence?

If we cannot know whether or not this Abrahamic god exists, does that also indicate that we cannot know if anything else exists or not?

If I say to you that I have a large 100 mile high dragon living in my 12 foot high garage, should you then say "I don't know," or "I can't know?"

When does "reason" make an introduction to all this?

Nobody can know whether or not there is a god because god is defined in such a way as to be non-falsifiable, and also non-verifiable. God is defined (by mainstream Christianity, anyway) as existing outside of time and space, unaffected by any physical laws, without physical substance, and able to circumvent all physical laws and even logic itself. Therefore any sort of knowledge about god is impossible. There is only belief.

The knowability of your dragon depends on whether you claim he is invisible and undetectable, or a flesh-and-blood dragon. And BTW, please do not keep your 100-mile-high dragon in a 12-foot-high garage. Dragons need room to stretch out. If the only space you have available is a 12-foot-high garage, you should limit yourself to keeping small dragons. If you persist in keeping a dragon in too small a space I'll be forced to report you to PETD. (People for the Ethical Treatment of Dragons.)

(08-09-2015 05:14 AM)Bwchadwell Wrote:  
(07-09-2015 07:03 PM)daniel1948 Wrote:  Even though the term "agnostic" literally means without knowledge, in modern use it means someone who takes no belief position with regard to the existence of god.

Just because people wrongly co-opted the term to avoid the social stigma of the atheist label doesn't change the fact that it has an actual definition. There is no neutral belief position. You either accept the claim that there is a god or you don't.

Wrong. There is a very distinct middle position:

Theist: I believe there is a god. (Or gods.)
Atheist: I believe there is not a god. (Or, there are no gods.)
Agnostic: I hold no belief regarding whether or not there is a god. (Or gods.)

"El mar se mide por olas,
el cielo por alas,
nosotros por lágrimas."
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08-09-2015, 08:21 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(08-09-2015 05:41 AM)Matt Finney Wrote:  
(07-09-2015 08:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  No. Atheists reject the claims of theists. It's not up to me to define the god the theist claims exists.

Let me fix it.

Theists try to define god into existence, while 6.9'ers and above try to define god out of existence, while agnostics claim that both sides don't know Jack Schitt. Tongue

It's the same guys who are telling us that a garage dragon that exists, doesn't exist. They're all like, "see, by existing, it doesn't exist.....etc...."

Still wrong.

I'm at 6.99999+, but I am still an agnostic atheist. I do not accept theists' claims.

And without any evidence, the claim is no different than a garage dragon.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-09-2015, 08:24 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(08-09-2015 08:12 AM)daniel1948 Wrote:  Wrong. There is a very distinct middle position:

Theist: I believe there is a god. (Or gods.)
Atheist: I believe there is not a god. (Or, there are no gods.)
Agnostic: I hold no belief regarding whether or not there is a god. (Or gods.)

I don't agree.

Atheist: I don't accept the theists' claims. I lack a belief in any gods.

Agnostic: I have no evidence one way or the other, therefore I lack a belief in any gods.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-09-2015, 09:29 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(08-09-2015 08:12 AM)daniel1948 Wrote:  Wrong. There is a very distinct middle position:

Theist: I believe there is a god. (Or gods.)
Atheist: I believe there is not a god. (Or, there are no gods.)
Agnostic: I hold no belief regarding whether or not there is a god. (Or gods.)

Atheist believing that there is no god? I thought that such silly words could only be uttered by theists desperately wanting to convince themselves that everyone believes. It seem I was wrong.

Exactly how many atheists do you met that have said that they're believing in nonexsitence of god? There is simply no reason to believe that god does not exist; it's not about belief in him non existing but about lack of proof that such thing exists.

I do not believe that god does not exist, I dismis this idea cause there are no evidence supporting it.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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08-09-2015, 10:33 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
Agnostic fight! There's got to be a meme here somewhere. Consider

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08-09-2015, 11:33 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(08-09-2015 08:12 AM)daniel1948 Wrote:  
(07-09-2015 07:58 PM)Free Wrote:  Why can't people know one way or the other?

What is the criteria we should use to determine existence or non existence?

If we cannot know whether or not this Abrahamic god exists, does that also indicate that we cannot know if anything else exists or not?

If I say to you that I have a large 100 mile high dragon living in my 12 foot high garage, should you then say "I don't know," or "I can't know?"

When does "reason" make an introduction to all this?

Nobody can know whether or not there is a god because god is defined in such a way as to be non-falsifiable, and also non-verifiable. God is defined (by mainstream Christianity, anyway) as existing outside of time and space, unaffected by any physical laws, without physical substance, and able to circumvent all physical laws and even logic itself. Therefore any sort of knowledge about god is impossible. There is only belief.

Therefore, here you are claiming the "possible" existence of such a god, without demonstrating with any evidence or supported reasoning as to how and why it is possible?

It is my experience that things are only possible when the possibility can be demonstrated to be true. Can you provide any evidence to support your proposed possibility as being true?

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08-09-2015, 11:54 AM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(08-09-2015 08:12 AM)daniel1948 Wrote:  Nobody can know whether or not there is a god because god is defined in such a way as to be non-falsifiable, and also non-verifiable. God is defined (by mainstream Christianity, anyway) as existing outside of time and space, unaffected by any physical laws, without physical substance, and able to circumvent all physical laws and even logic itself. Therefore any sort of knowledge about god is impossible.

Then what is the difference between this god and no god at all?

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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08-09-2015, 12:00 PM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(08-09-2015 11:33 AM)Free Wrote:  
(08-09-2015 08:12 AM)daniel1948 Wrote:  Nobody can know whether or not there is a god because god is defined in such a way as to be non-falsifiable, and also non-verifiable. God is defined (by mainstream Christianity, anyway) as existing outside of time and space, unaffected by any physical laws, without physical substance, and able to circumvent all physical laws and even logic itself. Therefore any sort of knowledge about god is impossible. There is only belief.

Therefore, here you are claiming the "possible" existence of such a god, without demonstrating with any evidence or supported reasoning as to how and why it is possible?

It is my experience that things are only possible when the possibility can be demonstrated to be true. Can you provide any evidence to support your proposed possibility as being true?

Not this again.

No one is claiming a god is possible by rejecting the claim that a god exists.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-09-2015, 12:26 PM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(08-09-2015 12:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-09-2015 11:33 AM)Free Wrote:  Therefore, here you are claiming the "possible" existence of such a god, without demonstrating with any evidence or supported reasoning as to how and why it is possible?

It is my experience that things are only possible when the possibility can be demonstrated to be true. Can you provide any evidence to support your proposed possibility as being true?

Not this again.

No one is claiming a god is possible by rejecting the claim that a god exists.

Let me explain something to you once and for all.

His position is "I don't know whether it is possible that god exists or not."

Right?

Okay, what he is actually saying is, "I know that I don't know whether it's possible that god exists or it's possible that God does not exist."

Right?

Question: How does one arrive at the conclusion that he doesn't know if its possible that a god exists or not without acknowledging the possibility either way?

Please answer that.

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08-09-2015, 12:31 PM
RE: Why agnosticism?
(08-09-2015 12:26 PM)Free Wrote:  
(08-09-2015 12:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  Not this again.

No one is claiming a god is possible by rejecting the claim that a god exists.

Let me explain something to you once and for all.

His position is "I don't know whether it is possible that god exists or not."

Right?

Wrong.

Quote:Okay, what he is actually saying is, "I know that I don't know whether it's possible that god exists or it's possible that God does not exist."

Right?

Wrong. No one is saying that.

Quote:Question: How does one arrive at the conclusion that he doesn't know if its possible that a god exists or not without acknowledging the possibility either way?

Please answer that.

That has nothing to do with rejecting the theist's claim that a god exists.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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