Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
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02-02-2014, 02:15 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 01:06 PM)JAH Wrote:  The Germans are coming, as someone of the far left I must point something out. I have used the argument you allude to above, that the Soviet Union was not a communist state and therefore not a good example of a possible Marxist or non capitalist state.

I also then make the point that the current state of human society is not advanced to the place where a non capitalist/money dominated state could exist. I approach an ideal social/economic structure from a much different direction than frankksj. I do also recognize it as an ideal which will not be approached even remotely in even my great great grandchildrens life.

Which is an utopian concept.

The concept of utopia has this really undemocratic and horrible thing to it that many people dont even know about.

A person arguing for it can always say, but we havent reached utopia yet. Without ever having to give an actual example of that mysterious perfect socialist or capitalist society.

Quote:There is a difference between the ideal and the real. What I believe to be ideal can be argued on its merits it cannot be condemned because it exists.

No. I condem the idea because it doent exist.

The fact that it doesnt exist is what makes it so horrible.

It gives people an excuse to insist on it and considere it to still be possible.

Do you understand what I mean?

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02-02-2014, 02:18 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 02:06 PM)JAH Wrote:  I would point out that because tax evasion is not a crime in Switzerland does not make it not a crime elsewhere. Enabling criminal activity is that no matter how you try to parse it.

Fine, let's use your logic. A woman driving is a crime in Saudi Arabia. Therefore, according to you, any other country that allows a Saudi woman to drive is "enabling criminal activity". Right?

The way to evaluate your logic is instead of talking about a "crime" that you're emotional and passionate about (not paying taxes), talk about another "crime" which you're ambivalent to, and then we can see if your logic holds up. When we do, we see there is no logic to your position.

(02-02-2014 02:06 PM)JAH Wrote:  I would ask in relation to stolen assets, is there a moral difference between holding those assets and not trying to return them to the proper owner and stealing them in the first place. My answer would be no.

So, if a thief steals $100 from you, and deposits in a Bank of America savings account, then, by your logic, BofA is just as immoral as the thief. Needless to say, to me, there's no comparison.
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02-02-2014, 02:26 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 01:25 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Question: Do you believe that government exists to serve the people,


A governments job is not to be either left, right, liberterian, enviormentalist or any other!

A democratic government has only one singel obligation: To constantly change!

Change of leadership! Experiment of new ideas! Debate of issue! Learning from mistakes And solving current problems! - Are a government only job!

Those who argue for anything else and say that government has a fixed unchangeable role - like you do - are frauds and fundermentaly undemocratic!

Quote:and that people should be able to decide for themselves if their government is providing a good value for those services, and if not, they should be free to stop using those services (ie emigrate) and thus stop paying for them?

To determine that is through debate by representatives through review by society! And not the job of an ideology that creats concepts of indefinatly unchangeable structures of society which are in neglect or opposition to the democratic concept of government mentioned above!

Quote:Your argument that it's "criminal tax evasion" when a German wants to relocate to Switzerland suggests you favor the same system as, say, North Korea,


How the FUCK is fleeing from North Korea the same as commiting a crime in a civilised democratic country and then attempting to flee justice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????


Quote:where the government owns the people and taxation is not simply a way of paying for services, but rather a form of debt bondage, where the government "owns" its citizens for life, like slaves.

Rubbish again. Money is NOT equal to personality! Every German citizen still has the fundermental right to determine his or her own destiny!

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02-02-2014, 02:32 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 02:00 PM)frankksj Wrote:  @The Germans are coming,

This also shows your OP is total bull-shit. You said American's libertarians are insane, whereas Europe's were tolerable. Yet Switzerland is Europe's bastion of libertarianism and you railed against it as strong as you could.

I have yet to meet a Swiss person who claims that "seatbelts are opression by the government!"

But I do know that the Swiss support crime in Europe - which is enought reason to rail about.

And of course, Switzerland is also the bastion of backwards fanatics havin legislative power - which is also something to rail against.

A country does not need to be liberterian, to have liberterian politicians - do you understand that concept?!

Quote:Therefore, it's not a American vs. European libertarian thing.

It is, because European liberterians dont believe seatbelts to be opression and dont plant bombs in magistrates like in Oklahoma city to make a point.

Quote: You just hate the whole concept of letting people live in peace and exercise free will without the government using violence to force compliance.

Will you fucking stop making strawmen you cunt!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:It doesn't matter whether it's in America or Europe. The idea of freedom and liberty is equally repulsive no matter the continent.

Enought!!!!!!!!!!!! If you post one more strawman, I will report you for making strawmen arguments.

And If the mods reject the report, I will open a thread asking to have people who clog up threads with useless gibberish that has nothing to do with the subject banned.

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02-02-2014, 02:47 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 02:12 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Yes it does, frank from the hillbilly mountain, claimed that the state of European rail became better there where it was privatised.

Which is untrue and therefor a lie.

...or an error. Not all errors are lies.

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02-02-2014, 02:48 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 02:47 PM)toadaly Wrote:  ...or an error. Not all errors are lies.


But reading through his post it really does not look like that.

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02-02-2014, 02:51 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 02:09 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Again you reply in a completly evasive way and dont even adress the bloody point which is: Switzerland does not have the highest standerds, Income and low taxes are not the main factor determening living conditions. Do you always ignore what people say when you talk with them and just say what you want?

That's insane. My position was that determining the highest standards is a subjective process, everybody does it differently, because value different things. However, of all the common measures, like life expectancy, crime rate, per capita income, etc., Switzerland comes out near the top. You, however, are so arrogant that you're arguing that whatever YOU decide is the method of determining highest standards, THAT is the one that I must accept, and if I don't bow before you, then I've got a problem. Life expectancy in Switzerland is 82.8 year vs 81 years in Germany. Murder rate in Switzerland is also lower. Household income in Switzerland is $47,237 vs. a meager $27,213 in Germany. Average household net worth in Switzerland is $648,200 vs. only $220,474 in Germany. Germany's unemployment rate is 5.2%, Switzerland's is 3.4%.

Yet, despite all these statistics, I still accepted that standard of living was subjective, and that you found places that considered Germany's standard higher than Switzerland. However, you are so pompous that, despite the hard numbers, you refuse to accept that anybody could see it the other way and say things are better in Switzerland.

(02-02-2014 02:09 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Wrong! Catholic antisemetic radicals frequently export papers and material to Germany.

Ah, so you're against freedom of speech. I look at it the opposite. If you've got a bunch of backwards, rednecks in Germany who are buying this stuff, then YOU, Germany, has a problem. It's absurd to say that it's the Swiss government's fault for not censoring their press because too many Germans lack the mental capacity to deal with it.

(02-02-2014 02:09 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Are just lying or to stupid to look things up????? German government is not centralised, powers are very stricktly divided in half by the constitution between state and federal government.

The whole system you're railing against is that Switzerland allows autonomous self-rule in their cantons. So, when eugenics came to Europe, yes, in Switzerland SOME cantons participated. But in Germany, these laws were passed at the national level and it became a country-wide issue.

(02-02-2014 02:09 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Missing the point again, because I clearly outlined women who had sex before marrige
were steralised under Swiss law until the 1970s. And you compare that to the sterelisation of the mentaly ill??????????

That's bull shit. Give me a link to something supporting your claim that Switzerland sterilized women who had sex before marriage in the 1970's. I think you're making this shit up.

Quote:No. I use the official numbers given by EU, ministry of economics, rating agencies, the US federal reserve and the UN.

The numbers I posted at at the top of this post ARE the official numbers. The Swiss live longer, have less crime, earn twice as much, are worth four times as much than Germans, and have much less unemployment. Those are the facts, and they blow your claim that Switzerland is such a backwards place out of the water.

Quote:If you want to live in Germany - you have to pay German taxes - if you are a German citizen who smuggles his cash into Switzerland where he needs not pay German taxes - that is illegal - and that German citizen has broken German law and should be prosecuted.

First, in your previous post you said that if a German RELOCATES (ie moves) to Switzerland it's a crime. Only after I reminded you how that worked the last time Germany implemented such a policy did you know backpeddle and claim we're talking about Germans living in Germany and just hiding money in Switzerland. Regardless, it's still Germany's problem, so Germany needs to deal with it.

You never hear of Switzerland going to other countries and demanding those countries lock up Swiss citizens for refusing to support Switzerland. Switzerland doesn't have a problem with their people fleeing to other countries to hide the fruits of their labor. If Germany has such a problem and does a shitty job of taking care of its own people that they're running around in other countries, that's Germany's problem. The notion that other countries need to track Germans activity and report it back to Germany is authoritarian.

Quote:And again, you refuse the most pressing issue of all, that the Swiss launder the profits from organised crime.

Because to me, and most Swiss, it's not organized crime. Most of this “organized crime” you refer to is drug money, and to me, if somebody wants to smoke a joint or shoot up or whatever, that's their business. I'm totally against the big brother state swooping in and telling everybody what they can do with their bodies, denying people free will and liberty. So, if drug money ends up in Switzerland, great. It's welcome here. It's YOUR stupid fault for having the nanny state that goes around hauling people off at gunpoint every time they do something you don't like. That's why this stuff becomes “criminal” in the first place. Tax evasion, same thing. If you can't keep your own citizens happy and they're so fed up with your government that they refuse to pay their taxes and are running off to Switzerland, GREAT. That's your fucking problem. You just have this bully mentality that your problem is everybody else's, and whenever a German citizen does something you don't like, the rest of the world needs to help you hunt him down.

Quote:So you deny that the very popular political right in Swizerland rails and rant against French, German and Italian workers?

Maybe in the rural mountain areas. Here in Zurich, no, everybody gets along just fine.
Quote:That is the 9th time that instead of adressing the argument or giving a counter agument you write about some bullshit that has nothing to do with the subject.

Dumb ass, YOU STARTED THE THREAD ABOUT LIBERTARIANISM. And libertarianism is about one thing: granting people free will. So when I keep bringing it up, it is I who am keeping the thread on topic, since it is YOU who started a thread raging against freedom and liberty.

Quote:You reject that notion and believe in utopia - which is why you are just of the same mental state as a communist - who also believes in a utopia.

I'm describing the country I choose to live in. If you call it “utopia”, then fine. Here in Switzerland it's a utopia. We don't have a government listening to our phone calls, reading our emails, monitoring our bank accounts, locking us up for doing things society doesn't like, etc., etc. If that's “utopia”, then I “believe in utopia” only because it exists.

Quote:And how many people use US rail on an average year?

Before the government took over rail, 90% of the public used it for all their trips. Today, now that it's been nationalized, I don't know one person who has ever used it.

Quote:Roads are not private.

In the US, they were private until the government took over. And when they were private, they were in much better shape. The US even had synchronized stop lights on the PRIVATE roads in the 1920's. Today, 100 years later, the government complains the task of synchronizing traffic lights is just too daunting.
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02-02-2014, 02:55 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 02:32 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  And If the mods reject the report, I will open a thread asking to have people who clog up threads with useless gibberish that has nothing to do with the subject banned.

Damn, you HATE freedom of speech. I guess I REALLY hit a nerve, and you'll do anything to shut me up. Go ahead, report my post, give me negative reputation. On this forum, whenever you expose how barbaric club-wielding leftists are, they immediately go give you negative reports. To me, it's a badge of honor. If what I said was an irrelevant strawman, you'd just ignore it and it wouldn't upset you so much. The way you're so outraged proves I really hit home with my posts.

Notice, I NEVER suggest I want to ban you, or block your posts. I LOVE YOUR POSTS, and want you to keep posting more and more of them because you just keep digging yourself into a deeper hole.
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02-02-2014, 03:00 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
The Germans are coming, this will be difficult to express which I hope you will understand. I must say your response to me was reasonable and understandable and for the most part I must agree with it. I would also say that I do live in the world which exists and respond to it on its level meaning, for example, that I routinely vote in elections I know to be flawed on many levels.

My notion of an ideal world is inclusive. By that I mean things like workers have a real say in how their employers run whatever business they are involved in. All the needs of people, housing, food, the usual things are met no matter what the situation of the individual is, even those who might criminally abuse others would have minimal protections if isolated from the most. None of this imposed in any sense but as an expected norm because of the understanding that we are all in this life together (well then we die).

Do I have a specific form of social/economic structure that would achieve this, no I do not. I hope that slowly humans will come to the realization that we are all related and that oppressing others for our own gain allows the oppression of ourselves. Childish and utopian I will grant. Which is why I am not optimistic for the near future and why I do not offer concrete specific structures for the near term.

I do what I can in the near term such as voting against the death penalty or wearing my IWW tee shirts. My hope is for the long term and I do what I can in the short.
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02-02-2014, 03:14 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
frankksj, here as elsewhere you avoid probing questions from people by dancing around their points with an excess of words. When called on it you dance to another argument. "The Germans are coming" may not always be polite but he certainly has countered you well. You would be well suited to either withdraw or argue his points honestly.
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