Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
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02-02-2014, 03:34 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 02:51 PM)frankksj Wrote:  That's insane. My position was that determining the highest standards is a subjective process, everybody does it differently, because value different things. However, of all the common measures, like life expectancy, crime rate, per capita income, etc., Switzerland comes out near the top. You, however, are so arrogant that you're arguing that whatever YOU decide is the method of determining highest standards, THAT is the one that I must accept, and if I don't bow before you, then I've got a problem. Life expectancy in Switzerland is 82.8 year vs 81 years in Germany. Murder rate in Switzerland is also lower. Household income in Switzerland is $47,237 vs. a meager $27,213 in Germany. Average household net worth in Switzerland is $648,200 vs. only $220,474 in Germany. Germany's unemployment rate is 5.2%, Switzerland's is 3.4%.

Wrong again. You said it was number 1.

Which turned out to be a lie or missinformation conciously posted by you.

Quote:Yet, despite all these statistics, I still accepted that standard of living was subjective, and that you found places that considered Germany's standard higher than Switzerland. However, you are so pompous that, despite the hard numbers, you refuse to accept that anybody could see it the other way and say things are better in Switzerland.

Not just places, but international institutions and agencies that agreed on that list.

You are so pomus to reject that official objective conclusion on the basis of a biased liberterian journal.



Quote:Ah, so you're against freedom of speech.



FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!! I NEVER FUCKING SAID THAT YOU FUCKING CUNT!!! STOP MAKING THOSE FUCKING STRAWMEN NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:I look at it the opposite. If you've got a bunch of backwards, rednecks in Germany who are buying this stuff, then YOU, Germany, has a problem. It's absurd to say that it's the Swiss government's fault for not censoring their press because too many Germans lack the mental capacity to deal with it.

Which was not even the point. Again, you refuse to adress the issue and just labber on nonsence.

My point is that Switzerland harbors radical loons, whilest you insisted that it does not.




Quote:The whole system you're railing against is that Switzerland allows autonomous self-rule in their cantons. So, when eugenics came to Europe, yes, in Switzerland SOME cantons participated. But in Germany, these laws were passed at the national level and it became a country-wide issue.

And on the other hand:

When Eugenics was condemd and outlawed: It was done on a national level all across Europe, except for Switzerland where the great autonomos regions which only make such great and wonderfull decisions kept klinging on to eugenics.

And you keep ignoring that.



Quote:That's bull shit. Give me a link to something supporting your claim that Switzerland sterilized women who had sex before marriage in the 1970's. I think you're making this shit up.

[Image: umschlagmoralischdefekt19kb.jpg]

Part of a series on eugenics in Europe.

Due to it`s unclear possition on having central legislation and judiciary, Switzerland was the last country to say goodbye to eugenics. It is also the only country in Europe that never appologised to it`s victims.

Quote:The numbers I posted at at the top of this post ARE the official numbers.
The Swiss live longer, have less crime, earn twice as much, are worth four times as much than Germans, and have much less unemployment. Those are the facts, and they blow your claim that Switzerland is such a backwards place out of the water.

Which as I pointed out 4 fucking times by now, is selcetive and ignores other factores. Do you understand that concept you retard?

I am getting fucking tired of having to repeat everything over and over and over and over again.

And:

are worth four times as much than Germans

How does one determine how much a human being is worth?

Probably the most disgusting thing you ever posted.



Quote:First, in your previous post you said that if a German RELOCATES (ie moves) to Switzerland it's a crime.

No. I clearly said - evades taxes.

Quote:Only after I reminded you how that worked the last time Germany implemented such a policy did you know backpeddle and claim we're talking about Germans living in Germany and just hiding money in Switzerland. Regardless, it's still Germany's problem, so Germany needs to deal with it.

Exactly, and it deals with it by putting presure on Switzerland and calling it a country of criminals.

Quote:You never hear of Switzerland going to other countries and demanding those countries lock up Swiss citizens for refusing to support Switzerland.

A bullshit and simplicistic comparison that ignores the importants of a legal system and the concept of justice in the free world.

Quote:Switzerland doesn't have a problem with their people fleeing to other countries to hide the fruits of their labor. If Germany has such a problem and does a shitty job of taking care of its own people that they're running around in other countries, that's Germany's problem. The notion that other countries need to track Germans activity and report it back to Germany is authoritarian.

No it is not. If you live in a country, you either abide to the laws, go to jail or leave.

According to your logic, everyone could just say: it is Germanies fault that it has problems with islamic extremists harrasing women - the government should simply legalise rape.

Your notion of totalitarianism is absolutly obscure and disgusting because it relativises the horrors of real totalitarianism.


Quote:Because to me, and most Swiss, it's not organized crime. Most of this “organized crime” you refer to is drug money, and to me, if somebody wants to smoke a joint or shoot up or whatever, that's their business. I'm totally against the big brother state swooping in and telling everybody what they can do with their bodies, denying people free will and liberty. So, if drug money ends up in Switzerland, great. It's welcome here. It's YOUR stupid fault for having the nanny state that goes around hauling people off at gunpoint every time they do something you don't like. That's why this stuff becomes “criminal” in the first place. Tax evasion, same thing. If you can't keep your own citizens happy and they're so fed up with your government that they refuse to pay their taxes and are running off to Switzerland, GREAT. That's your fucking problem. You just have this bully mentality that your problem is everybody else's, and whenever a German citizen does something you don't like, the rest of the world needs to help you hunt him down.

No.

Drug money is only a third of mob income.

The rest is racketeering, fraud and modern slavery.

Now please justify racketeering, fraud and modern slavery.

Quote:So you deny that the very popular political right in Swizerland rails and rant against French, German and Italian workers?

Quote:Maybe in the rural mountain areas. Here in Zurich, no, everybody gets along just fine.

And I know a tentacle monster that lives in Munich.

Personal accounts I dont care about.

Quote:Dumb ass, YOU STARTED THE THREAD ABOUT LIBERTARIANISM. And libertarianism is about one thing: granting people free will.

Hobo

Are you holding speeches in empty rooms to yourself?

Quote:So when I keep bringing it up, it is I who am keeping the thread on topic, since it is YOU who started a thread raging against freedom and liberty.

No you are not keeping it on topic, because you refuse to adress arguments and keep creating strawmen and post things out of the blue that have nothing to do with the argument.



Quote:I'm describing the country I choose to live in. If you call it “utopia”, then fine. Here in Switzerland it's a utopia. We don't have a government listening to our phone calls, reading our emails, monitoring our bank accounts, locking us up for doing things society doesn't like, etc., etc. If that's “utopia”, then I “believe in utopia” only because it exists.

No you are not describing a country.

You are describing your vision of what the world should be like and have been doing so since your first post.



Quote:Before the government took over rail, 90% of the public used it for all their trips. Today, now that it's been nationalized, I don't know one person who has ever used it.

And there you go, public transportation destroyed.



Quote:In the US, they were private until the government took over. And when they were private, they were in much better shape.

Because only wooden carts were being driven on them, being pulled by horse?

Quote:The US even had synchronized stop lights on the PRIVATE roads in the 1920's. Today, 100 years later, the government complains the task of synchronizing traffic lights is just too daunting.

That sounds like something you pulled out of thin air.

Post some sources.

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02-02-2014, 03:41 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 03:14 PM)JAH Wrote:  frankksj, here as elsewhere you avoid probing questions from people by dancing around their points with an excess of words. When called on it you dance to another argument. "The Germans are coming" may not always be polite but he certainly has countered you well. You would be well suited to either withdraw or argue his points honestly.

What points did he make that I did not counter? I tried to address every one as clearly as possible.

IMO, the reason he is SOOO outraged is that he likes to consider himself modern and progressive. But he hates it when we libertarians point out that the system he advocates, where whoever has the power makes all the rules and uses violence and force to coerce everyone else into complying, is actually a primitive system. It's what man has used for thousands of years, what neanderthals used, what packs of wild animals use. By contrast, the libertarian system where we agree to tolerate others even when we they do something we hate, when we respect unlimited free speech even when they say things we don't like, and we commit to never initiating violence to force others to do it our way, that's a very modern system. It originated with philosophers and has been a huge success everywhere it's been tried, including in Switzerland, which the numbers support.

He hates that every single time he brings up a point, I show that the ONLY difference between is he wants to use violence against people who don't do what he thinks they should. He wants other countries to haul off at gunpoint Germans who run off and hide their income. He wants us to throw in jail people who sell substances that he doesn't approve (like drugs). He's called on the Swiss government to send in the police to censor extremists who write radical newsletters, which he fears Germans can't handle. Every time I bring it back on track and show that it really is all ONE issue: he is using force to deny people liberty and free will, and that's a primitive, barbaric, ancient way of thinking.

If you think I haven't addressed one of his points, please copy/paste what it is. I will address it directly, and show that it ALWAYS comes down to this one single issue of a modern system of liberty vs. the age-old system of forcing people to do things against their will.
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02-02-2014, 03:55 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
frankksj, I can rightfully call bullshit on your silly comment on synchronized stop lights. The only roads I know of where synchronized stop lights are useful, El Camino Real on the San Francisco Peninsula, 19th Ave. and the Great Highway in San Francisco proper all have synchronized stop lights. Yes pedestrians can put a little hiccup in the situation as can heavy traffic. Your comment is so far from correct as to be laughable and what so ever does it have to due with libertarianism. Will in the ideal structure no traffic laws exist, that would be interesting.

I admit I missed this at first.
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02-02-2014, 03:55 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 02:55 PM)frankksj Wrote:  If what I said was an irrelevant strawman, you'd just ignore it and it wouldn't upset you so much. The way you're so outraged proves I really hit home with my posts.

There's something really fascinating about how thoroughly you simply don't understand other people's posts and your interaction with them.

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02-02-2014, 04:05 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 03:34 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Wrong again. You said it was number 1. Which turned out to be a lie or missinformation conciously posted by you.

No, I said it was #1 according to the surveys done by the Economist, but always conceded that it's subjective. YOU are the one who is adamant that it's not subjective, and that it's a lie to say it's #1 because whatever measure YOU use is the only one that's allowed.

(02-02-2014 03:34 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  You are so pomus to reject that official objective conclusion on the basis of a biased liberterian journal.

"Official"? You say anything that supports your view is official. Note that by contrast I posted the actual numbers for life expectancy, income, crime rate, unemployment, etc. and I let readers decide for themselves.

(02-02-2014 03:34 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  My point is that Switzerland harbors radical loons, whilest you insisted that it does not.

And my point is that, in my opinion, allowing everyone liberty and freedom of expression is not "harboring radicals". Sure, it means radicals are allowed to thrive without an oppressive police state to keep them in check. But the point of the system is NOT to encourage or harbor radicals, it's simply an unavoidable byproduct. Whenever you have a free state, you will be "harboring radicals". The only way to avoid it is with your favored police state.

(02-02-2014 03:34 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  When Eugenics was condemd and outlawed: It was done on a national level all across Europe, except for Switzerland where the great autonomos regions which only make such great and wonderfull decisions kept klinging on to eugenics.

Correct. And which eugenics program caused more harm? Switzerland's, where the scope was limited, or elsewhere in Europe where all the laws were done nationally? Again, as a German you have a lot of nerve throwing stones at Switzerland over eugenics when the German eugenics program was orders of magnitude more devastating.

Look, read my old posts. I have condemned eugenics more strongly than anyone else on this forum. I'm not defending it at all. But for you to insist it was a somehow a Swiss problem is absurd. The fact that Switzerland has autonomous regions DID allow eugenics to go on longer than in other countries, but it also meant that the damage that it caused was much less. Are you seriously saying Germany's eugenics program, which killed millions of people, was better than Switzerland's, which afaik resulted in the sterilization of around 100, simply because Germany ended the eugenics program earlier? Need I remind you the only reason Germany ended its eugenics program at all was because you lost the war.

Quote:No it is not. If you live in a country, you either abide to the laws, go to jail or leave.

Fine. But what you're arguing is that Switzerland needs to enforce Germany's laws on Germans in Switzerland. If we take your logic, then every country in the world needs to ban Saudi women from driving, because otherwise the country is "harboring criminals". If YOU, Germany, want to arrest and lock up your own people for doing things you don't like, FINE, do what you want. But don't expect Switzerland to help.

Quote:Now please justify racketeering, fraud and modern slavery.

What is the definition of slavery? If in 1800 a black man is working a cotton plantation in Mississippi, how do you know if he's a slave or a freeman? It's because the slave is forced to participate in the system against his will, whereas the free man does it voluntarily. YOU have presented a justification of slavery, insisting people should be denied free will a.nd forced to do things.

Quote:That sounds like something you pulled out of thin air. Post some sources.

Wikipedia:

"The first interconnected traffic signal system was installed in Salt Lake City in 1917"

No, they weren't using horse and buggies. They had automobiles. The history is here
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02-02-2014, 04:08 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 03:55 PM)JAH Wrote:  frankksj, I can rightfully call bullshit on your silly comment on synchronized stop lights.

I just posted the link in my last post. Yes, synchronized traffic lights were invented in 1917.

(02-02-2014 03:55 PM)JAH Wrote:  The only roads I know of where synchronized stop lights are useful, El Camino Real on the San Francisco Peninsula, 19th Ave. and the Great Highway in San Francisco proper all have synchronized stop lights.

That's ridiculous. Read traffic studies. If the cities would convert all major roads into one way, with all the lights synchronized, you could drive from one end of the city to the other non-stop at the speed limit. Read the news about how LA is struggling to become the first city in the US with synchronized lights because it would do a lot to relieve congestion.
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02-02-2014, 04:08 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
frankksj, I would point out that "The Germans are coming" has never promoted violence as a means for government control. That is your own personal fantasy and you should lose it.

As an example of what he and what I have found wanting in your arguments is the rather cavalier attitude you take toward Swiss banks enabling criminal behavior. Your example of a Saudi woman driving in another country for example is laughable. You may make an argument about tax evasion if it is truly legal in Switzerland but you ignore as has been pointed out fraud or extortion which one assumes is not legal in Switzerland. I would also point out that there may be a rational for not extraditing a person for tax evasion but a person is different than funds. Funds do not necessarily have rights.
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02-02-2014, 04:19 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 04:08 PM)JAH Wrote:  frankksj, I would point out that "The Germans are coming" has never promoted violence as a means for government control. That is your own personal fantasy and you should lose it.

Yeah, but, he's so good at it...

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02-02-2014, 04:28 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 04:19 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Yeah, but, he's so good at it...

It`s our best export.

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02-02-2014, 04:31 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
He avoided the argzuments again..... is there any point in arguing with someone who doesnt understand the concept of having an argument?

He managed to make me really angry with that behavior.

And I find it hilarious that he posted a link to the wiki article on traffic lights as if that proved that roads use to be private in the US.

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