Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
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02-02-2014, 06:17 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 06:08 PM)JAH Wrote:  Tax collectors send letters and threaten you with fines they do not come to you with gun in hand.

Only if you comply. Resist, and definitely men will show up at your door with guns. You think all those people in prison for tax evasion are there because they like being locked in a 7' wide cell? You're delusional if you think they're there of their own free will and not because they know resistance is futile since the one making the rules will escalate the level of force until you either comply or are dead.
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02-02-2014, 08:53 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
It depends on why you didn't part your taxes. If you claim you made an honest mistake, as long as they don't think you pose a physical threat you are unlikely to get that reaction.

If, however, you question their authority to tax you, they will kick in your doors at 3 am and point automatic weapons at you, your kids and any one else in the house. They will treat you like the most dangerous of criminals. That is not speculation. I know someone who challenged the IRS's right to collect taxes in a letter and that was the reaction. They were not amused.

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02-02-2014, 10:23 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
@The Germans are coming,

You kept avoiding the question I asked re: your insistence that the Swiss authorities should take action against German tax evaders, since tax evasion isn't a crime in Switzerland...

What if a Saudi woman comes to Switzerland and takes driving lessons. Should the Swiss (a) arrest her and deport her and provide evidence to Saudia Arabia to assist in their prosecution, or (b) take the attitude that, since in Switzerland it's not a crime for a woman to drive, she's free to do what she wants as long as she's not breaking any Swiss laws, and Switzerland has no obligation to enforce laws from other countries that the Swiss don't consider crimes?

Please answer that.


Now, if you pick (b), then, fine, you're not a hypocrite. But if you pick (a), explain why the situation changes when the "crime" we're talking about is tax evasion, instead of female driving, since either way, to the Swiss, it's not a crime, but rather a right. And don't give me a subjective, emotional reaction like "because tax evasion really is a bad crime". I want a logical explanation that doesn't involve emotion or subjective opinions about what's good and bad.
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03-02-2014, 05:19 AM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 10:23 PM)frankksj Wrote:  @The Germans are coming,

You kept avoiding the question I asked re: your insistence that the Swiss authorities should take action against German tax evaders, since tax evasion isn't a crime in Switzerland...

What if a Saudi woman comes to Switzerland and takes driving lessons. Should the Swiss (a) arrest her and deport her and provide evidence to Saudia Arabia to assist in their prosecution, or (b) take the attitude that, since in Switzerland it's not a crime for a woman to drive, she's free to do what she wants as long as she's not breaking any Swiss laws, and Switzerland has no obligation to enforce laws from other countries that the Swiss don't consider crimes?

Please answer that.


Saudi Arabia allows it`s women to take driving lessons in foreign countries and to drive in foreign countries.

Driving as a woman in Saudi Arabia itself is outlawed.

So your question is pointless.

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03-02-2014, 06:28 AM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 06:03 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(02-02-2014 05:12 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Frank would you mind showing an example of a time when a police officer held a gun to someone's head and forced them to wear a seat belt, pay their taxes, use a crosswalk, etc.
Just one example please.

Easy. Wesley Snipes, for not paying taxes. Don't you think the cops that arrested him had guns? And, if he continued to resist, he would have ultimately been shot. It didn't come to that because we all know that resistance is futile when the person telling you to do something will shoot it if you don't comply. I'm sure in North Korea, too, you rarely see the guns. But the people comply only because they know they'll be used if they resist. Your argument that people who comply aren't shot is absurd. With that logic anything can be justified. A man can threaten to shoot you if you don't hand him your purse, and by that logic, it's not violence because, so long as you comply, you won't see the gun. To me, whenever you do something against your will because you know resistance is futile, THAT is what I mean by being forced to do something with a threat of violence. I've explained this 100 times already in this forum, but this keeps coming up.

It keeps coming up because you keep saying it. You have never given a single example of a police officer holding a gun to someone's head and forcing them to pay taxes. That doesn't happen. Violence is met by violence Frank, resisting arresting is a form of violence Frank. Tell me one time when someone did not resist arrest and a police officer held a gun to their head and forced them to do something? You cannot. You cannot because that does not happen in real life. Only in the imaginary world of Frank where the government is always out to get you. People with this sort of attitude are so frustrating! I imagine if your money was somehow electronically stolen from your bank account you'd be telling the police not to arrest the person who stole it lol.

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03-02-2014, 09:20 AM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2014 09:33 AM by frankksj.)
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(03-02-2014 05:19 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Saudi Arabia allows it`s women to take driving lessons in foreign countries and to drive in foreign countries. Driving as a woman in Saudi Arabia itself is outlawed. So your question is pointless.

No, it's not pointless. Assume the law in Saudi Arabia universally banned women from driving. Should Switzerland enforce that law?

The reason you're dodging the question is because you don't want to admit that it's absurd to expect Switzerland to enforce laws that are not crimes within Switzerland. In Switzerland, the issue of paying taxes is a far more civilized matter. Guns and violence are never used. Negotiation and incentives are used, and if the people find the cost for government services too high, the government needs to improve--not just send in police to haul them off to jail. To us Swiss, your tax system is as barbaric and medieval as the Saudi's driving system. It's a throwback to ancient times when a king or feudal lord would send his tax enforcers out with clubs to beat up any villagers who didn't hand over their money. You don't see it, of course, since you like that tax system, so you're unwilling to accept that others have a different point of view, and therefore assume everybody in the world should also use their police to enforce your tax laws.

But, since we no doubt agree that a ban on women driving is barbaric, THEN, you can see the situation clearly, from the point of view of the Swiss, and realize that it's unreasonable to expect a country to enforce other countries' laws which they consider barbaric.
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03-02-2014, 09:27 AM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(03-02-2014 06:28 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Violence is met by violence Frank, resisting arresting is a form of violence Frank. Tell me one time when someone did not resist arrest and a police officer held a gun to their head and forced them to do something?

I've challenged a repeatedly to justify your position by explaining how you would feel if the person doing this was a civilian and not a policeman.

If a kidnapper came to you and said he was going to lock you in his basement for 10 years and would only shoot you if you resisted, would you STILL say that "resisting arrest is a form of violence"? If you resisted the kidnapper and so he shot you in the head, would you still say that it was YOU who was initiating violence by resisting, and the kidnapper was merely defending himself when he shot you?

Of course not!!! The reason is that I have a system that treats all humans equally. Whether you're a kidnapper or a policeman, you have no special rights. YOU have a system where the people who are working for you, doing what you instruct them (ie the police) are superhuman and the normal rules don't apply.

Now, go back to the Salem witch hunts. If the police showed up your door to enforce a law against witchcraft, would you STILL say that it was you, the accused, who was being "violent" by resisting arrest and burning at the stake?

Of course not!!! Because, again, your rule that policemen have superhuman powers doesn't apply universally--only when the police are enforcing laws that you feel are proper.

So, the bottom line is that your reasoning is that if somebody else did it to you, it would be violence. But if you do it to somebody else, it's not, and "violence" is merely when someone resists.
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03-02-2014, 09:46 AM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(03-02-2014 06:28 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Violence is met by violence Frank, resisting arresting is a form of violence Frank.

Running away from someone is a form of violence? At any rate, even if you do use violence to resist arrest, the cop is the one who initiated it. It seems silly to pick on the hyperbole about guns to the head, as part of an argument that law is not fundamentally rooted in the threat of initial force. Of course it is.

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03-02-2014, 09:46 AM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
@The Germans are coming,

I'll reword it in the most simple way so it's harder for you to keep dodging:

Q: Should your country be expected to enforce laws from other countries which, in your country, don't exist and are considered barbaric.


YES OR NO? That's a simple question.
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03-02-2014, 09:51 AM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2014 11:59 AM by JAH.)
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
frankksj, You insistence on bringing up the Saudi woman driving argument is annoying. The Saudi's don't give a fuck about their women driving in Switzerland. Other nations are concerned about how the Swiss banking system aids and abets criminals in the laundering of funds from activities which are clearly criminal in Switzerland, I will give a partial pass on tax evasion although I think it is a bogus argument. You have evaded the question in regard to fraud, extortion, theft all of which are certainly crimes in Switzerland. I would even suspect that many hired murders are payed through Swiss accounts.

Serious questions you duck and bring in stupid and specious arguments like the Saudi woman driver. You have made all sorts of claims about the benefits of private ownership which have also been shown to be false. You have simply danced around serious questions and brought up either specious or false arguments.

Try to stay on topic your significant detours are quite annoying particularly when they are repeated.
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