Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
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03-02-2014, 10:00 AM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2014 11:48 AM by JAH.)
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
frankksj, since we are into simple questions, who owns the railways and the major roadways in Switzerland.
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03-02-2014, 10:11 AM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(03-02-2014 09:27 AM)frankksj Wrote:  I've challenged a repeatedly to justify your position by explaining how you would feel if the person doing this was a civilian and not a policeman.

If a kidnapper came to you and said he was going to lock you in his basement for 10 years and would only shoot you if you resisted, would you STILL say that "resisting arrest is a form of violence"? If you resisted the kidnapper and so he shot you in the head, would you still say that it was YOU who was initiating violence by resisting, and the kidnapper was merely defending himself when he shot you?

Of course not!!! The reason is that I have a system that treats all humans equally. Whether you're a kidnapper or a policeman, you have no special rights. YOU have a system where the people who are working for you, doing what you instruct them (ie the police) are superhuman and the normal rules don't apply.

Now, go back to the Salem witch hunts. If the police showed up your door to enforce a law against witchcraft, would you STILL say that it was you, the accused, who was being "violent" by resisting arrest and burning at the stake?

Of course not!!! Because, again, your rule that policemen have superhuman powers doesn't apply universally--only when the police are enforcing laws that you feel are proper.

So, the bottom line is that your reasoning is that if somebody else did it to you, it would be violence. But if you do it to somebody else, it's not, and "violence" is merely when someone resists.

Counterpoint:
the law is not "some guy"

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03-02-2014, 10:40 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 02:51 PM)frankksj Wrote:  In the US, they were private until the government took over. And when they were private, they were in much better shape. The US even had synchronized stop lights on the PRIVATE roads in the 1920's. Today, 100 years later, the government complains the task of synchronizing traffic lights is just too daunting.

Bullshit. I worked on the design and implementation of urban traffic control systems in the 70's and 80's in the U.S. and Canada.

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04-02-2014, 09:11 AM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2014 09:36 AM by frankksj.)
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(03-02-2014 10:11 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Counterpoint:
the law is not "some guy"

Of course they are. "Some guy"=humans, and laws ARE written by humans.

The reason we get so many lousy laws, like eugenics, prohibition, etc., is precisely because of that attitude. You assume "if it's a law, then it's automatically legit". You stop there. Libertarians think it through and ask what's in the law? Is it forcing people to do things against their will? If so, is the jurisdiction limited so the people can flee if it's too oppressive? Our system would eliminate all the major human tragedies that resulted from bad laws.
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04-02-2014, 09:27 AM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(03-02-2014 09:51 AM)JAH Wrote:  frankksj, You insistence on bringing up the Saudi woman driving argument is annoying.

In my prior post I worded it as a general question if one country should have to enforce foreign laws that it considers barbaric and which aren't criminal in that country. Since it seems @TheGermansAreComing's biggest beef with Switzerland, why he considers them the most "vile people on the earth", is that the Swiss don't enforce German laws which the Swiss consider antiquated and barbaric. So, asking him that question IS THE topic at hand. What if Switzerland asked Germany to enforce laws which Germans considered barbaric? The reason you find it annoying is because reciprocity is the basis of any moral code. And I'm constantly pointing out that the things you (collectively) ask others to do, you would not do yourselves. They're not reciprocal, therefore, they're immoral. That's why you find it so annoying.

(03-02-2014 09:51 AM)JAH Wrote:  You have evaded the question in regard to fraud, extortion, theft all of which are certainly crimes in Switzerland.

I answered this question directly already. The reason Swiss banks are not compelled to send banking data to the government is NOT to harbor foreign criminals--it's because the Swiss themselves value liberty and privacy, and don't want a police state. Look, the banks do try to weed out criminal activity. If you've ever banked here, you'd know that for all large inbound transfers you have to prove source of funds. But, because the banks are not sharing this information with the state, sure, it's easier for criminals to falsify paper trails and slip under. Just like when you allow free speech, some people are bound to say things you don't like. But don't say that free speech laws exist to harbor racists and extremists. Racists and extremists are an undesired consequence of free speech, but for freedom lovers, we see it as a price we have to pay.

The leaked IRS training manuals shows the IRS gets copied on the NSA's bulk collection of emails and recording of phone records, and that IRS auditors are trained to falsify paper trails to hide the source of this information. If they haul your daughter off for not reporting that she babysat your neighbor's kid, they don't want her to know it's because they're reading her emails. So, sure, when you have a police state where the authorities can remotely turn on the cameras on your phones and computers and watch what everyone is doing, when you buy electronics and they intercept the packages and modify them so they can remotely monitor, when they deliberately weaken security so they can monitor all the online activity you want to keep private, when they read your emails and record your phone calls, then sure, they can do a much better job of weeding out criminal activity.

But, the Swiss don't want to live in a police state, they want liberty, freedom and privacy, even if it means some undesired criminal activity goes undiscovered. Why can't you guys accept that not everyone wants to do things your way? It's one tiny little country, a minute bastion of libertarianism. And yet the rest of you who advocate a police state are standing at the border with your pitchforks and clubs trying to get the Swiss to change and become like you. Why can't you just leave us alone, and let us live in peace? We're not going to your countries and demanding you do things our way. We're willing to peacefully co-exist, why can't you?

I get so angry when the big world powers, like the US, Germany, France, etc., do everything they can to pressure Switzerland to abandon its libertarian ways and join them in enforcing a police state so that they can get 100% of the world covered and not allow any pesky little enclaves of liberty to exist. It's this attitude that you need to force other people to do things your way that has led to the great tragedies man has suffered. Tragedies that are MUCH worse than someone hiding money in a bank account.
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04-02-2014, 09:58 AM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(04-02-2014 09:11 AM)frankksj Wrote:  
(03-02-2014 10:11 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Counterpoint:
the law is not "some guy"

Of course they are. "Some guy"=humans, and laws ARE written by humans.

There is a difference between the actions of a society and the actions of an individual.

You appear to be unable to grasp this distinction. It is puzzling.

(04-02-2014 09:11 AM)frankksj Wrote:  The reason we get so many lousy laws, like eugenics, prohibition, etc., is precisely because of that attitude. You assume "if it's a law, then it's automatically legit". You stop there.

That is a deranged fantasy contained nowhere in what I wrote.

Which is par for the course, but seriously?

(04-02-2014 09:11 AM)frankksj Wrote:  Libertarians think it through and ask what's in the law?

This is by definition what anyone does when considering a law. So there's that.

(04-02-2014 09:11 AM)frankksj Wrote:  Is it forcing people to do things against their will? If so, is the jurisdiction limited so the people can flee if it's too oppressive? Our system would eliminate all the major human tragedies that resulted from bad laws.

Once again you are apparently incapable of distinguishing between singular and plural pronouns.

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04-02-2014, 10:55 AM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
frankksj, your naivety has almost no bounds. The Swiss banks do not follow the Swiss people's valuation of privacy and liberty, they provide a secret system of banking because they can make money by doing so and they do not care if they aid and abet anti social behavior because of it.

You make an equivocation between Saudi women driving or as above a daughter not paying taxes on her babysitting earnings with fraud, extortion, theft on large scale levels. You think you have proved a point without realizing the vast difference between what you choose to talk about and what others are talking about. This use of false equivocations has been used by you repeatedly in this conversation.

As I said several posts ago you simply think you are right and just saying stuff proves it, without thinking through what you are actually saying.

I say this while acknowledging that the US spying on its people causes me some fear. Not because I am at great risk but because of the larger political implications. That is a valid point and deserves more debate and consideration by the US people than it has gotten. This does not mean that therefore all actions of the US government are flawed.
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04-02-2014, 12:00 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(04-02-2014 09:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  There is a difference between the actions of a society and the actions of an individual.

Society, is just a collection of individuals. It isn't something more.

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04-02-2014, 12:17 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(04-02-2014 12:00 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 09:58 AM)cjlr Wrote:  There is a difference between the actions of a society and the actions of an individual.

Society, is just a collection of individuals. It isn't something more.

Of course it is. It is the relationships and interactions between and among individuals.

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04-02-2014, 12:32 PM (This post was last modified: 04-02-2014 12:37 PM by frankksj.)
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(04-02-2014 10:55 AM)JAH Wrote:  The Swiss banks do not follow the Swiss people's valuation of privacy and liberty, they provide a secret system of banking because they can make money by doing so

Well WHO are you criticizing? The government of Switzerland for not requiring the banks to share your account information? Or specific unscrupulous bankers who use that freedom to launder money?

If you're criticizing the government, your claim that they allow the banks to operate in secret for the express purpose of laundering money is total nonsense. They do it to protect the Swiss citizens own privacy from an authoritarian, intrusive government big brother.

If you're criticizing individual bankers, fine, I agree, lots of bankers are scum. The question is what to do about it? The only way to make sure all bankers are purely above-board is for the Swiss to give up their own liberty and privacy by allowing government monitoring of bank accounts.

Don't criticize me for dodging your questions, when your questions aren't specific and I'm having to guess whether your complaint is about government policy, or individuals. If you're just venting your frustration at shady individuals, but accept that the government can't do anything about it without infringing on honest people's liberty, then fine, we're in agreement.

@GermansAreComing was blasting the Swiss government for allowing extremists in remote mountain areas to publish radical newsletters that were infiltrating Germany. Fine, I'm obviously not in favor of that. I'm a tolerant, live and let live liberal. But, the question is what to do about it. @GermansAreComing seems to think the Swiss government should censor free speech to rein in the extremists. The fact that I have a problem with that does NOT mean that I condone the radical newsletters, but rather that I tolerate them for the sake of liberty.
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