Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
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04-02-2014, 05:19 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(04-02-2014 04:53 PM)cjlr Wrote:  "Things can be flawed" is not something I was contesting. That there is in fact a difference between individual initiative and societally endorsed actions is.

Not in general. ...only if you're one of those people who has tacitly agreed to it by becoming part of the political system. Most people don't even vote, and since leaving is not an actual option for most people either, it really is just the application of nonconsentual force.

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(04-02-2014 04:45 PM)toadaly Wrote:  ...why would you expect it to?

I wouldn't, seeing as how you were following on from a response that was itself a non sequitur.

That's one reason I suppose. Another reason might be that the comment was directed to frankksj, and not you. Drinking Beverage

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04-02-2014, 05:23 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
frankksj, you have made false equivalences in the past so I will do the same.

If my will is to forcibly have sex with every woman I know should that be allowed. It is after all my will.

If my will was to enslave my work force and only allow them the food and shelter they need to survive should that be allowed. It is after all my will.

If my will was to go to the mall and kill as many people as I had bullets for should that be allowed. It is after all my will.

If my will was to find you or some other and shove a knife through your or the others eye into their brain should that be allowed. It is after all my will.

Should there be legal/social constraints to prevent me from such actions or should they be allowed because they are my will.
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04-02-2014, 06:42 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(04-02-2014 05:23 PM)JAH Wrote:  Should there be legal/social constraints to prevent me from such actions or should they be allowed because they are my will.

I've explained this a million times. If my explanations are insufficient, then read Locke, Bastiat, or any of the other classic liberals. It's VERY simple and consistent, unlike the opposing argument.

In a libertarian (classic liberal) system NOBODY is permitted to initiate force to coerce anybody to doing anything against their will. NOBODY, not you, not the police. You and the police are treated equal. In all the examples you gave, your "will" was to initiate force on others, making them have sex with you, killing them, etc. Obviously, if YOU are the one initiating force, your victim has a right to defend herself, including delegating that some law enforcement. So, if you try to rape a woman, or shoot someone, the victims have the right to fight back. A clear, clean, coherent, consistent system. NOBODY is permitted to initiate force against ANY else. PERIOD. No exceptions.

The non-libertarian view, however, is incoherent and inconsistent, because you make up rules as you go and arbitrarily change them on the fly and state that the rules don't apply to some people, unless you think they should, and you draw ever-moving lines in the sand.

For example, _IF_ a rapist wants to forcibly penetrate a woman's vagina, that is wrong, and the woman is entitled to fight back with all her might. BUT, _IF_ it's a cop and he suspects the woman is carrying drugs in her vagina, THEN, it's not rape and it's perfectly acceptable to tie her down and forcibly penetrate her vagina, and if the woman resists this assault, then the cop is free to shoot or tase the woman for resisting her "rape". Of course, this also becomes a gray area, because sometimes cops are perverts and just fabricate "oh I smelled drugs" so they have an excuse to violate the woman. Now in this case, even though it's the cops and it's done under the auspices of the law, suddenly it becomes wrong again. It's all a bunch of gray areas, and if you're woman, you may or may not be violated, you may or not have the right to resist. But, in a libertarian world, the rules are consistent. If you're a woman, nobody can force themselves upon you. Ever. If they do, you can fight back. Always.

Same thing with all your other examples. In every single case, in a libertarian system, it's clear the behavior you describe isn't allowed. But, in a non-libertarian world, everything is gray because you're not actually following any moral code. You're just making up the rules as you go. It's the law of the jungle, might makes right.

For example, you ask if it's okay to shoot someone in the mall. In a libertarian world, the answer is clear. No. Not ever. And if someone is trying to shoot you in the mall, you have every right to fight back, and have the police fight back in your defense. In the non-libertarian world, however, it's a gray area. For example, Obama has declared that he DOES have the right to have soldiers kill any American anywhere he wants without being charged with a crime, without any judicial process, if, in his sole judgement, you are somehow a 'risk' to him. Consider this 16-year old Colorado-born boy who was never charged with a crime, was not threatening anybody else, had no connections to any terrorism. He was shot dead. The boy's grandfather actually sued the US government before this happened because he had already been advised his grandson was on a secret kill list because the boy's father was an Al-Qaeda sympathizer. The case was dismissed, and the grandfather was denied access to the judicial process on "national security" grounds. So, in this case, if the boy were in a shopping mall, then, yes, it actually IS okay to shoot him dead because he's on the secret kill list, and if the boy resists his own murder, then his resistance makes him an insurgent terrorist.

As always, the libertarian system is based on logic, reason, morality, and it's consistent. If you're a boy in a shopping mall and are not threatening anybody or initiating violence, NOBODY is allowed to initiate violence against you. Ever. In the non-libertarian system, however, it's all gray areas. Some people are above the law. Some can kill others with impunity, others cannot. It's a lawless, inconsistent place where everybody is fighting to get the club of power (ie 51% of the vote) so they can beat the shit out of everybody else. If you've got the club and someone has something you want. Take it. If someone won't stop doing something you dislike, beat them until they stop.
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04-02-2014, 07:18 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
frankksj, you rather ignored my main point which you frequently do. If you want to make false equivalencies I am also allowed.

You offer up an ideal social/economic structure which I am loath to admit I agree may be achieved. You also ignore legitimate questions about your specific positions.

You also choose to make up draconian situations that typically do not exist in real life. The police examining a woman's vagina looking for drugs being one of them. While I will agree that the "war on drugs" is a colossal failure in the US. I might ask you how the experiment with Platzspitz Park went, yes I was in Zurich when it was a police free zone.

I am a bit tired of this back and forth. You are an ideologue who ignores others because they might find some fault with your point of view. You also ignore when others point out to you that you are incorrect even when their facts are irrefutable. Good luck
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04-02-2014, 07:35 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(04-02-2014 07:18 PM)JAH Wrote:  frankksj, you rather ignored my main point which you frequently do.

I thought I addressed it. Can you be specific, what point you're referring to?

(04-02-2014 07:18 PM)JAH Wrote:  You also ignore legitimate questions about your specific positions.

If I failed to answer a question, it was unintentional. Please restate it and I will show you that I am willing to answer ANY question you put out. Because the libertarian position is based on logic and reason, I won't run from questions, like @TheGermansAreComing when I asked if countries should enforce foreign laws which they don't have. If I'm backed into a corner and can't answer a question, then, fine, I'll admit that I need to rethink.

(04-02-2014 07:18 PM)JAH Wrote:  You also choose to make up draconian situations that typically do not exist in real life. The police examining a woman's vagina looking for drugs being one of them.

Huh? That DOES happen all the time. Just do a google search. For example: this. And the other example I gave WAS a real life example. You presented hypothetical, like "say I want to rape every woman", and I responded with actual real-world examples. I think you just don't like them because they show how inconsistent and arbitrary the system is.

(04-02-2014 07:18 PM)JAH Wrote:  While I will agree that the "war on drugs" is a colossal failure in the US. I might ask you how the experiment with Platzspitz Park went, yes I was in Zurich when it was a police free zone.

Having lived in Zurich for a long time, the main problem was that the rest of Europe was hauling off addicts at gunpoint and Zurich was the only safe place for them. So ALL the junkies from ALL over Europe came to this one park where they were given free needles and drugs. So, it was an embarrassment because it made it look like half of Zurich was junkies when 20,000 addicts were crowded in the city center. Most of the crime going on wasn't from local Swiss junkies, it was junkies coming in from all over Europe. Thus it was, imo, less a sign of failure in the Swiss system, and more a sign of failure outside of Switzerland.

Zurich didn't give up the program, though. The Swiss still tend to treat addiction like a disease and offering help and rehabilitation instead of guns and jails. And I still think this is a much better way to go. And now that Portugal decriminalized all drugs and we see that rate of usage did not go up, but crime went way down, I think this vindicates that the Swiss were simply ahead of their time.
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04-02-2014, 08:09 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
Just looking at page 1 I already saw where this is going.

America's is such a somewhat bad country that it's list of pros and cons are Identical.

Democracy and freedom are it's most infamous famous features.
They both are great but also suck. Democracy is the worst because when a minority of people suffers, there is a always a majority to vote "no". Like people of the fox "news" team. They are biased. There shouldn't be one majority in supreme court, congress, the senate, or in the president's chair. Why? Because it's all BIASED. Personally from one person's POV it 's all great, but if you look at the whole thing. America is run badly and I could say it sucks.

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05-02-2014, 12:09 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(04-02-2014 05:19 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(04-02-2014 04:53 PM)cjlr Wrote:  "Things can be flawed" is not something I was contesting. That there is in fact a difference between individual initiative and societally endorsed actions is.

Not in general. ...only if you're one of those people who has tacitly agreed to it by becoming part of the political system. Most people don't even vote, and since leaving is not an actual option for most people either, it really is just the application of nonconsentual force.

That's fair enough. And while on the one hand the flaws of the system (where 'the' system is understood to be the relevant one wherever one is at the time Tongue ) are serious and readily apparent, I also have very little regard for those who disengage from even the small role they can play.

(04-02-2014 05:19 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
Quote:I wouldn't, seeing as how you were following on from a response that was itself a non sequitur.

That's one reason I suppose. Another reason might be that the comment was directed to frankksj, and not you. Drinking Beverage

Yeah, sorry for being a little flippant there. Undecided

I'm just used to frankksj making bizarrely digressive statements as if they were relevant and answerable.

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07-02-2014, 08:32 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
I am not going to read through 15/16 pages of thread to join in on this. I just want to point out that I am a libertarian if you have to hammer labels on everyone, and I take exception to the mad generalizations being made. I can have a logical debate with anybody from a libertarian view point. There are socialist, communist, conservatives, democrats and pretty much any group can be pigeon holed the exact same way you just did libertarians.

It is all about the individual you are having the conversation with. I find a libertarian or socialist or anybody outside of what is currently mainstream American political dialogue to be far more refreshing and informative to have a discussion with that your typical Republican or Democrat.
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07-02-2014, 08:41 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(07-02-2014 08:32 PM)mrlmichael Wrote:  ... pretty much any group can be pigeon holed the exact same way you just did libertarians.

(07-02-2014 08:32 PM)mrlmichael Wrote:  ... your typical Republican or Democrat.

Self-demonstrating article, eh?

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07-02-2014, 08:48 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
Which is why I hate labels. It is restrictive. Even more so when you affiliate yourself with a party like the two major parties. Instead of thinking for yourself a lot of times people get sucked into the trap of what I call "the team sport mentality". Where you just defend and regurgitate the talking points of whatever party you support. I feel like there is (or at least should be) a difference between a conservative and Republican, as well as a liberal and a Democrat. The basic point is, think for yourself, not your party. This is why I use libertarians and socialist as an example, they generally aren't represented well by the two major parties, so having a conversation with them can be a lot more refreshing than feeling like your talking to a Fox News or MSNBC talking head.

Edit: Moral of the story, you can have a "typical" Republican or Democrat because these are parties, that have official positions on every issue. This could be said of Libertarians if you are talking about the party, but I am talking about the "small l" variety.
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