Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
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07-02-2014, 08:55 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(07-02-2014 08:48 PM)mrlmichael Wrote:  Which is why I hate labels. It is restrictive. Even more so when you affiliate yourself with a party like the two major parties. Instead of thinking for yourself a lot of times people get sucked into the trap of what I call "the team sport mentality". Where you just defend and regurgitate the talking points of whatever party you support. I feel like there is (or at least should be) a difference between a conservative and Republican, as well as a liberal and a Democrat.

Which is a sentiment which will find no strong disagreement here. Though of course it's worth bearing in mind the rest of the world. Here we've got a three party system - which is broken as fuck, let me tell you, but it's less ossified than a two party system, that's for sure.

That the two American parties are broad-tent, is a consequence of several particular historical factors (but FPTP cannot die soon enough, IMO). That they are insufficient at expressing the views of all Americans, likewise. I'm fairly sure you guys have the lowest average voter participation of all developed countries.

(07-02-2014 08:48 PM)mrlmichael Wrote:  The basic point is, think for yourself, not your party. This is why I use libertarians and socialist as an example, they generally aren't represented well by the two major parties, so having a conversation with them can be a lot more refreshing than feeling like your talking to a Fox News or MSNBC talking head.

Since you didn't read the thread:
(31-01-2014 05:51 PM)cjlr Wrote:  'Course, the ones that have given it some thought are the ones who remind me that the differences between (honest) libertarians and (likewise honest) anarchists and socialists are basically cosmetic.
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07-02-2014, 09:00 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
What country are you from? Voter participation isn't high here, but there are no laws governing it either. My Belgian wife is obligated by law to vote, so obviously participation rates are higher there.

Law or no law, you are right, the system as it is now disenfranchises a lot of would be voters.
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07-02-2014, 09:15 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(07-02-2014 09:00 PM)mrlmichael Wrote:  What country are you from?

Canada.

(07-02-2014 09:00 PM)mrlmichael Wrote:  Voter participation isn't high here, but there are no laws governing it either. My Belgian wife is obligated by law to vote, so obviously participation rates are higher there.

Law or no law, you are right, the system as it is now disenfranchises a lot of would be voters.

Relevant quote from upthread:
(05-02-2014 12:09 PM)cjlr Wrote:  And while on the one hand the flaws of the system (where 'the' system is understood to be the relevant one wherever one is at the time Tongue ) are serious and readily apparent, I also have very little regard for those who disengage from even the small role they can play.

It's a problem I don't know how to solve.
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07-02-2014, 09:20 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
I don't know how to solve it either. While I have been frustrated with it, I have never not participated, even if it means voting for Gary Johnson like I did in 2016 (who obviously was not going to win).

I think that the kind of people I admire the most, whether or not you agree with them or not are the people who advance change outside the common restraints of the political system. One such example would be WikiLeaks, another, another controversial group would be Defense Distributed. Now, like these groups or not, agree with them or not, I find them admirable because they find an effective way to skip the political system and go straight to the people to bring about change. I am more interested in engaging in the world that way, but do not ignore the politics.
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07-02-2014, 09:26 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(07-02-2014 09:20 PM)mrlmichael Wrote:  I don't know how to solve it either. While I have been frustrated with it, I have never not participated, even if it means voting for Gary Johnson like I did in 2016 (who obviously was not going to win).

That is commendable.
(no sarcasm! honest!)

(though - I suspect you don't mean 2016, actually, since that's still the future... Tongue )

(07-02-2014 09:20 PM)mrlmichael Wrote:  I think that the kind of people I admire the most, whether or not you agree with them or not are the people who advance change outside the common restraints of the political system. One such example would be WikiLeaks, another, another controversial group would be Defense Distributed. Now, like these groups or not, agree with them or not, I find them admirable because they find an effective way to skip the political system and go straight to the people to bring about change. I am more interested in engaging in the world that way, but do not ignore the politics.

But that is politics. A democratic system is obligated to respond to public opinion.
(I am simultaneously incredibly cynical and hopelessly naive. It's how I get through the nights.)

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07-02-2014, 09:44 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
I made a lot of typing mistakes in that last post haha. I meant 2012 obviously. Whether or not you think it is commendable, there was no way I was voting for Barack Obama or Mitt Romney. I supported Ron Paul in the primaries (although I did like Gary Johnson more). I also worked for the campaign of my local Congressmen Justin Amash. It is a coincidence that I had that opportunity, as Amash is one of the few politicians I have supported for awhile, and due to redistricting, he is now my congressmen, so I was excited to work for him. So I am involved, no matter how frustrated I get.
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07-02-2014, 09:48 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(07-02-2014 09:44 PM)mrlmichael Wrote:  I made a lot of typing mistakes in that last post haha. I meant 2012 obviously. Whether or not you think it is commendable, there was no way I was voting for Barack Obama or Mitt Romney.

Under most circumstances neither would I have; the spectre of strategic voting does alas rear its ugly head.
(a sign of a broken political system if ever there was one)

(07-02-2014 09:44 PM)mrlmichael Wrote:  I supported Ron Paul in the primaries (although I did like Gary Johnson more). I also worked for the campaign of my local Congressmen Justin Amash. It is a coincidence that I had that opportunity, as Amash is one of the few politicians I have supported for awhile, and due to redistricting, he is now my congressmen, so I was excited to work for him. So I am involved, no matter how frustrated I get.

Yes. That is what is commendable.

It's one thing to whine. Anyone can whine. You are actually involved.

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07-02-2014, 09:55 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
'Cause there's a black dude in charge. Just sayin'.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
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08-02-2014, 12:41 AM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(07-02-2014 09:20 PM)mrlmichael Wrote:  I don't know how to solve it either. While I have been frustrated with it, I have never not participated, even if it means voting for Gary Johnson like I did in 2016 (who obviously was not going to win).

Damn it! I knew you were from the future.

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08-02-2014, 01:29 AM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(08-02-2014 12:41 AM)toadaly Wrote:  
(07-02-2014 09:20 PM)mrlmichael Wrote:  I don't know how to solve it either. While I have been frustrated with it, I have never not participated, even if it means voting for Gary Johnson like I did in 2016 (who obviously was not going to win).

Damn it! I knew you were from the future.
I think by Gary johnson he means when Al Gore and Stephen Hawking combined into a mechrobot created by Bill Gates in 2015 June 13th thus creating the alias Gary Johnson.

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