Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
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31-01-2014, 05:15 PM (This post was last modified: 31-01-2014 05:18 PM by Phil Hill.)
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
BTW, take your veiled threat and shove it up your fucking ass.

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31-01-2014, 05:18 PM
Re: RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(31-01-2014 05:14 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(31-01-2014 05:03 PM)Phil Hill Wrote:  The first post of the split begins with my post on this thread. It was the replies to it by non readers that brought it off topic.

I understand that, but after carefully rereading it, I decided to make it first in the split to preserve somewhat the thead continuity.

The is no continuity in the split, just one post then the wolfpack turned rabid.

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31-01-2014, 05:33 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(31-01-2014 05:18 PM)Phil Hill Wrote:  
(31-01-2014 05:14 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I understand that, but after carefully rereading it, I decided to make it first in the split to preserve somewhat the thead continuity.

The is no continuity in the split, just one post then the wolfpack turned rabid.

It was the post that started the questions and subsequent derailment.

This is becoming another derailment.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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31-01-2014, 05:40 PM
Re: RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(31-01-2014 05:33 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(31-01-2014 05:18 PM)Phil Hill Wrote:  The is no continuity in the split, just one post then the wolfpack turned rabid.

It was the post that started the questions and subsequent derailment.

This is becoming another derailment.

Delete our posts and the one that derailed it even further.

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31-01-2014, 05:42 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
I am assuming this is the part of the thread that is to discuss the OP. I will repeat some of what I said in the Vipers Pit version.

I think labeling libertarians insane is a bit harsh. The bit about seat belts represents what I see as a very fringe element of libertarianism. One that oversells the idea that individuals can do what they damn well please and no legal system should force them to do anything. They can ignore the fact that there can be very high social costs if they are badly hurt in an accident.

Their biggest mistake in my mind, particularly the adamant free marketers, is not recognizing that money is power. The small business owner who claims he is being ruined by regulations that are unnecessary and that if there was a free market he would prosper makes an important mistake. He does not recognize that in a truly free market larger and more wealthy businesses would run over him like a speed bump.
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31-01-2014, 05:43 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
anyway...... getting back to the original question......

Can we first define what you mean by "Libertarians"? I think it's a word that is used incorrectly quite often. If you mean extremist tea party members you see on TV, they are insance because in any society you will have extremist and in ours those are the extremists on the right. We have nuts on the left too.

I actually consider myself libertarian on a great many issues and i don't think I'm absurdly insane. I just hear voices and talk to imaginary people like the normally insane. On social issues I'm extremely libertarian. On things like drugs I am too. On government, I think it should be smaller and far less intrusive. On economics I prefer the market to work and decide things on its own. I don't prefer these thigs in a vacuum, though. I realize that no model is text book perfect and I'm a realist, not an idealogue. I think a certain amount of government intervention is necessary but I think the US and most of the European democracies have gone completey off the rails and the spending is going to turn our societies into huge wastelands. I think money has too much power in government and citizens too little. Come election time, I absolutely will not pull a lever for either a Democrat or a Republican as it's only feeding the system and contributing to the problem. I'd sooner vote for Mickey Mouse than a candidate from a major party. In the past, I've voted libertarian in a lot of elections. I couldn't do it in 2008 because the candidate was Bob Barr, one of the biggest ass holes on the planet (right behind Larry Summers) so I held my nose and voted for Obama (and really against the moronic VP candidate running with the 70 year old cancer survivor - it's a shame beause I once liked McCain).

As for your question, I think you need to understand the US and the changing demographics. The country is changing and not all of it is for the better. A lot of people are seeing things get worse. They see the lives they once knew changing in ways that scare them. Once upon a time in America a man who was willing to work could go out and find a job that paid a living wage and take care of his family. He didn't have to go to college, he didn't even have to graduate high school. He could work in a factory or work a trade or take a job that you could learn on the job and make enough money to sustain himself. Welfare was the exception and people were embarassed to be on it. Those days are gone. Today, if you don't have a college degree you are going to have a tough time finding a job that doesn't require you to get government assistance. And, even with an education it's not a lock. Companies constantly lay off and people are under a lot of pressure. Plus, today we have a lot more to pay for. When I was a kid there was no internet, no 60" tvs, no cell phones, etc. It wasn't just that things cost less, it was there was less you were expected to buy. It was a simpler life. A lot of people are not happy with the changes and they see the economy is not bringing everyone into the future.

Then you add people's personal experience with government and how messy it can be. Most everyone has some horror story about a government agency giving them a runaround. That is their view of government. It could be the DMV or the IRS or who knows what, but everyone has had a government nightmare experience. And, when these people come around saying "I can make this better" who is likely to believe them?

People aren't asking for less govenment and all these other positions because they are racist or crazy or ignorant. At least most of them are not. The vast majority is scared of a world that is rapidly leaving them behind. Not just technology wise but economy wise. And when the people in charge can't make it better, they look for alternatives. Even crazy ones sometimes.

I wouldn't judge too harshly. Most people just want to provide for their families and be left alone. The really crazy ones are the people who get on TV, because that's what sells.

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31-01-2014, 05:51 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
Good post, BnW.

(31-01-2014 05:43 PM)BnW Wrote:  People aren't asking for less government and all these other positions because they are racist or crazy or ignorant. At least most of them are not.

Unfortunately, in my experience it IS generally a statement borne of ignorance. People who have very little idea of what 'government' actually is and actually does - nevermind for the moment the gulf between the political theory underlying modern states and the wonkily uneven reality of its implementation - having internalised a thoughtless rote response (less 'government') as a way to bring back the vanished glory days (of whichever generation they happen to be a part of...).

'Course, the ones that have given it some thought are the ones who remind me that the differences between (honest) libertarians and (likewise honest) anarchists and socialists are basically cosmetic.
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31-01-2014, 07:14 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(31-01-2014 07:06 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  But probably the worst example of this insanity, I encountered just a few hours ago when on a politics forum I am on, this thread was opend: Do you believe in seat belt laws?

Libertarian (as in classic liberal) comes from the latin word 'liber', meaning free, and, like liberty, denotes permitting one to exercise free will. Therefore, libertarians oppose passing laws that force people to do things against their will, and believe the role of government should the opposite of the traditional one--defending people from coercion, not initiating it. Allowing everyone to exercise free will, rather than denying it.

Sure, many times the law does a good job. It's hard to find fault with the seat belt law. There's nothing bad about wearing a seat belt, and it's only good. BUT, when you allow politicians to force people to do what the politicians think is in their best interest, you also get a lot of terrible laws, like the war on drugs, that hauls students out of college who otherwise would go on to be productive members of society, instead locking them in jails and dooming them to a life of poverty.

There's no way to separate the "good" laws that force people to do things, like seat belts, from the "bad" laws, like drug policy, because when the laws are passed, they're only passed because they're considered "good", and it's not until much later that we realize in hindsight which ones did good (seat belts) vs. which ones did bad (drug laws). Therefore, since allowing the passage of good seat belt laws will inevitably lead to bad laws too, I'd rather not have either laws. The importance of wearing seat belts could have been accomplished through voluntary means, like public service campaigns, education, etc. So, if we didn't allow the government to deny people free will, we'd lose some "good" laws, but we could make up for them with other means, and we'd save ourselves of the "bad" laws.
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31-01-2014, 07:16 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(31-01-2014 07:11 AM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  The biggest problem for me when it comes to libertarians is that they always seem to think the freedom they want to give people should also be given to companies and corporations.

It's the opposite. The core of classic liberalism is that all humans are equal, and nobody gets special rights or privileges for belong to a group, whether that be a corporation, or a government. All libertarians I've read are actually more outraged than the general public about the special government privileges big corporations get, and how this leads to abuse and monopolies.
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31-01-2014, 07:22 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(31-01-2014 05:42 PM)JAH Wrote:  Their biggest mistake in my mind, particularly the adamant free marketers, is not recognizing that money is power. The small business owner who claims he is being ruined by regulations that are unnecessary and that if there was a free market he would prosper makes an important mistake. He does not recognize that in a truly free market larger and more wealthy businesses would run over him like a speed bump.

The facts prove the opposite. Of the thousands of monopolies, how many can you name, besides DeBeers, that got such an abusive power WITHOUT government help through regulations, patents, treaties, etc.? Milton Friedman asked that question many times, and nobody's come up with an answer. It's only logical that when government regulators can pick winners and losers, then big corporate interests with deep pockets will pull all the stops with their lobbyists to make sure the regulation favors them and squashes the competition. Look at how taxi regulation is being used by a handful of kingpins to crush Lyft and Uber. Or how car rental regulation is being used to crush new car sharing startups.

Also, compare the countries with the most freedom and least deregulation, like Hong Kong, to the countries with lost of regulation. It's always the deregulated ones, like Hong Kong, that have fierce competition, where new upstarts regularly topple the stale old corporations. In countries with heavy regulation, you'll find a handful of companies closely affiliated with the state, and no competition.
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