Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
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01-02-2014, 03:46 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
Oh dear me

this thread exploded while I was gone.

Is there any way for me to catch up?

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01-02-2014, 04:24 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2014 04:32 PM by JAH.)
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
frankksj, a quick internet search confirmed that agencies were setting fare rates for streetcar companies, something that I am ashamed I did not know. I will have to study up on this issue.

I would suggest that you do consider the fact of suburban sprawl in the US. Fixed route conveyances like street cars demand dense populations to make them profitable. The building boom in the US in the post WWII period was mostly low density housing in sprawled suburban areas. Serving these people with streetcars, if they did not already exist would have been costly and difficult.

Your comments on the european system seem in conflict with your general belief that the private sector does it better. If you allow that subsidized government run transit systems are good there why cannot they be good in the US. I can agree that everything is not necessarily good with government control. Of the 5 systems I have used routinely over the past 50 years (I am discounting one that no longer exists which was in fact private) only only 3 are run well and one of those recently invited a strike, I believe with the intent of breaking the union. Innovation and well run transit systems do not necessarily demand private control, they demand vigilance by the users. A major problem in the US is that unlike in europe where it is most of the public in the US it tends (except in commute hours) to be the lower classes who have much less say.

Oh and if you are ever in San Francisco be patient if you want to catch an N-Judah outbound from downtown in rush hour. Even 45 years ago when going to see my girlfriend I would board that streetcar at the end of the line downtown and it would be so packed I could have died and not hit the floor until I was almost at the stop for her apartment. I would also caution against using the F-line historic streetcars. The last time I used one of those I got the ride for free because the only way I could get on at the Ferry Building was sneaking in the back away from the fare collector.
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01-02-2014, 04:34 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(01-02-2014 03:46 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Oh dear me

this thread exploded while I was gone.

Is there any way for me to catch up?

You certainly did stir the pot on this one.

So, to recap, some people that think all government is bad ranted and raved. There were counterpoints which made them rant and rave all the more.

I went to Starbucks and got a nice Chai Latte Drinking Beverage

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
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01-02-2014, 04:50 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(01-02-2014 04:34 PM)KidCharlemagne1962 Wrote:  You certainly did stir the pot on this one.

So, to recap, some people that think all government is bad ranted and raved. There were counterpoints which made them rant and rave all the more.

I went to Starbucks and got a nice Chai Latte Drinking Beverage

Ahhhh

people I pend the thread about in the first place?

So basicaly this was going on here for the past 6 pages:




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01-02-2014, 04:53 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2014 04:59 PM by Chas.)
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(01-02-2014 03:44 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 03:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  Divestiture is not confiscation. The government did not confiscate train systems. Public Utility Holding Company Act of 1935 was directed at ending the grotesque bilking of utility customers.

One hour ago you said the act had nothing to do with train systems. Now you're backpeddling.

Are you on drugs? I'm not doing anything of the kind. You are a fucking idiot.

The Public Utility Holding Company Act of 1935 had nothing to do with train systems. Those holding companies had many other things they also had to divest.
The act was directed at their business practices which were robbing rate payers.

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01-02-2014, 04:53 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
KidCharlemagne1962, I have found little ranting here. I think you have mischaracterized things. This has been a slightly crazed but polite discussion between people. If a bit long and loopy on occasion.
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01-02-2014, 04:57 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(01-02-2014 04:24 PM)JAH Wrote:  The building boom in the US in the post WWII period was mostly low density housing in sprawled suburban areas. Serving these people with streetcars, if they did not already exist would have been costly and difficult.

Don't confuse cause and effect. My guess is that the reason for the urban sprawl was precisely because the dense, urban public transport system was dismantled and replaced with freeways.

(01-02-2014 04:24 PM)JAH Wrote:  Your comments on the european system seem in conflict with your general belief that the private sector does it better. If you allow that subsidized government run transit systems are good there why cannot they be good in the US.

Because imo what makes a system good is competition, more than if it's government or private. A private monopoly is just as terrible as a government one. In Europe, smaller countries with open borders and populations that constantly cross them means there is more competition for government-run transport. When a French person goes to Switzerland and sees how much better the trains are, they're more likely to demand better trains back home too. However, while European government transport is better than American, unquestionably, free enterprise is light years better still. Remember when European airlines where government run? Big airlines, like Air France, were so grossly inefficient that to compete with private airlines they need massive government subsidies, and STILL they were terrible. When they were spun off and deregulated, fares plummetted, service skyrocketed, and the companies were making profits despite much lower fares.

The reason I'm so convinced is this pattern has repeated hundreds of times across ALL transport methods. Remember when the US used to set airline fares until the 70's? When they were deregulated prices dropped 90% within a decade. Nasa could never turn a profit getting loads into space. Ten years ago they dropped out giving it to private companies. Now SpaceX and others have reduced the cost by more than 90%, now private people are booking space tourism, and the private space transport companies are now recruiting for a permanent colony on Mars. This stuff was unimaginable 10 years ago when government ran it.

Look at roads and bridges. Back when they were private, the ratio of cars:miles of roadway were light years better than now, and now they're falling apart and bridges are collapsing into the rivers. That didn't happen when they were private.

So, if you pick, say, several transport industries: roads, rail, airlines, space, and look at all the countries around the world that have experimented with both private and public, the pattern is 100% unbroken: When there's no competition, such as a government monopoly, there's no innovation. The product gets worse and worse and more and more expensive. When there's healthy competition, innovation explodes.

(01-02-2014 04:24 PM)JAH Wrote:  Oh and if you are ever in San Francisco...

I lived there for over a year. You know there's protests going on by people who take public transport and are jealous of the private buses the big tech companies run, that the private ones are so much better. But rather than saying "Hey, we want private transportation too!", instead they're just angry that those who do enjoy private transport should be forced to use the lousy public systems. Someone from the transit union even hired an actor to pose as a spoiled Google employee so they could film a staged confrontation in front of a Google bus, where the fake Google employee acted like an asshole, and they ran it on the news as though it was a real event.
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01-02-2014, 05:19 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(01-02-2014 04:53 PM)JAH Wrote:  KidCharlemagne1962, I have found little ranting here. I think you have mischaracterized things. This has been a slightly crazed but polite discussion between people. If a bit long and loopy on occasion.

I was commenting on the totality of the thread. The first have was fairly vitriolic.Drinking Beverage

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01-02-2014, 05:24 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
Is frankksj one of those people who lie when debating politics believing that they will never be cought out for it?

A silly thing to do on the internet.

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01-02-2014, 05:28 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(31-01-2014 07:06 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Liberterians are common in my country and rather enjoyable people to talk with and have a debate. They are just the kind of folk like everyone else and if you talk to them about politics they always try to give the most reasonable possible account of things and arguments.
If you talk to a European liberterian about his ideology he or she will give you a correct and fairly decent amount of information about the ideologies origin as it sprung into existance during the era of the French and American revolution and will name several of it`s founding fathers and greatest minds such as the Scotish philosopher Adam Smith, the Welsh philosopher Richard Price and mention some success stories of liberterian political reforms. Pritty much the only exception is the stereotypical posh boy, who grew up in a rich household, never had to work a single day of his life until his mumy had financed him through college and thinks he is entitled to talk down to everyone with opposing opinions as if they were little children or servants.

All in all, just like everyone else with an opinion.


Now our media always portraid American liberterians as a bunch of screaching and screaming brainless rednecks, incapable of common sence and reasoning and constantly screaming into peoples faces rather than giving actual arguments. But since that is a media portrait, I didn`t trust the image and have therefor always tried to encounter liberterians from the US myself.
And .... well.... First of one of the most commonly used phrases by them must be "Hitler did that". Mostly used in reference to... pritty much anything. I frequently hear the phrase in conection to social healthcare, despite the fact that social healthcare was interduced in Germany 10 years before Hitler was even born and is not a marxist international, but Swedish invention. I also hear it frequently in conection with gun control, despite the fact that even the liberterian hero Margerte Thatcher interduced the 1988 Firearms Amendment act after the Hungerford Massacre, banning the sale and private ownership of semi automatic assault rifles. And despite the fact that Hitlers weapons regulations was not about "taking the guns away from all private citizen" but taking them from jews and members od democratic parties.
There is also never even a single explaination or rational argumentation for ideological stances, not a single actual philosopher is ever quoted or sited by them. Instead they keep quoting, the at best of mediocre quality, novelist Ayn Rand, of whom we here in Europe wouldnt even have heard of if we wouldnt have the internet.


But probably the worst example of this insanity, I encountered just a few hours ago when on a politics forum I am on, this thread was opend:

Quote:This question applies to legal adults only, not children:

Do you believe in seat belt laws?

a) Yes. They are nessisary to protect the public for their own good.
b) No. I'm a consenting adult and shouldn't have to wear one if I don't want to.


Discuss...


I felt confident in giving this reply:

Quote:Considering that after the introduction in my country, fatalities in car accidents went down by 70%, I believe I have the legitemate right to call everyone who opposes it a fanatic knownothing.

And was horrified to see that 7 of 20 people voted against seatbelt regulations and made comment like this:

Quote:To not wear a seat belt is silly if you care about your safety. They obviously save lives in a huge way.

BUT...I do not believe for one second that the government has the right to force you to wear them.


Quote:People, adults, constantly "break" all kinds of laws while driving. They speed, text, talk on phones.......

If you don't want to wear a seat belt - don't.


Quote:I agree totally with the idea that everybody should wear seat belts and that insurance policies should be able to price that in.
But in my opinion you might have the balance between individual freedoms vs state intervention into the affairs of the citizens a little too close to the authoritarian models of the state. This opinion is based more on your choice of words to judge others than on the use of seat belts.


Quote:Seat belt laws are huge attack on liberty and just another way for the government to take money from the productive class and transfer it to the leech class.


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Your seat belt case is very good point and some of the replies are crazy !!!

The issue here is individual freedom vs nanny state - and this is a legitimate concern.
The problem is:
1. "individual liberty/freedom's" is an ill defined concept that is VERY slippery
2. The states controls on individual liberties can also be mishandled, corrupt and universalize a law which may have legitimate exceptions for individuals.

Lets start with #1
Does a person really have the liberty to think its OK not to use a seatbelt ? People are coerced by social pressures and utterly bizarre irrationalities and conspiracy theories and then think they are acting freely ?
What if a person is negligent and not very self caring but will obey the state law and wear a seatbelt to avoid a fine ? Are we/the state not doing such a person a favour ?

...and #2
What I wrote above can then be taken to an extreme that unless the person conforms to state policy they are accused of being irrational and "state heretics" (dissidents) ...then there is the slippery slope to Nazi Germany were if Jews doing science does not conform to the governments notions or what is reasonable then it is called "dissident Jewish science" etc etc and anything anyone who says anything against the government /state is persecuted.

Then we get the hundreds of borderline cases between A + B extremes.
What if I want to "safely" experiment with LSD as a psychoactive substance, with a psychiatrist or as part of my personal neuroscience and philosophical work ????
The state will then accuse me of being a criminal, I would lose my license and medical job and may even end up in prison or unable to work ? Am I being penalised because some idiots take the drugs and misuse them negligently then the state makes a universal law ?

So I have my sympathies for the libertarians based on the LSD like case above.

Then again I am against libertarians who would make prostitution as a normal job like any other because it is "freely chosen" work and based on individual liberties. Most prostitutes probably feel coerced and the prostitution is pretty much borderline or fully fledged rape. Then again you can find some women who find prostitution as their ultimate job, desired as a goal from a young age, fully fulfilling (literally) and part of their life purpose & ambition ? ? ? ??? ? ? ?
Am I to stop such a prostitute ? where is she ?

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