Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
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01-02-2014, 05:38 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(01-02-2014 05:28 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Your seat belt case is very good point and some of the replies are crazy !!!

The issue here is individual freedom vs nanny state - and this is a legitimate concern.
The problem is:
1. "individual liberty/freedom's" is an ill defined concept that is VERY slippery

It is a non-defined concept.

The very idea of a code of law in a republic is that regulations and rights have to be constantly revised and reafirmed or changed.

Quote:2. The states controls on individual liberties can also be mishandled, corrupt and universalize a law which may have legitimate exceptions for individuals.

Quote:Nobody would ever doubt that.

Lets start with #1
Does a person really have the liberty to think its OK not to use a seatbelt ? People are coerced by social pressures and utterly bizarre irrationalities and conspiracy theories and then think they are acting freely ?
What if a person is negligent and not very self caring but will obey the state law and wear a seatbelt to avoid a fine ? Are we/the state not doing such a person a favour ?

I have a brother who was an army medic and did shifts for the red cross first responders.

When a car crashes at high speed and the person is not fastend with a seatbelt severed arms or a head or parts of these get catapulted outside as dangerous projectiles.

And children will get catapulted out of the car in almoust every case.

Your not just doing him or her a favor, but hose whom he or she endangers.

Quote:...and #2
What I wrote above can then be taken to an extreme that unless the person conforms to state policy they are accused of being irrational and "state heretics" (dissidents) ...then there is the slippery slope to Nazi Germany were if Jews doing science does not conform to the governments notions or what is reasonable then it is called "dissident Jewish science" etc etc and anything anyone who says anything against the government /state is persecuted.

ostrocisisng someone for they beliefs is different to punishing someone who endagers himself and others.

Quote:Then we get the hundreds of borderline cases between A + B extremes.
What if I want to "safely" experiment with LSD as a psychoactive substance, with a psychiatrist or as part of my personal neuroscience and philosophical work ????
The state will then accuse me of being a criminal, I would lose my license and medical job and may even end up in prison or unable to work ? Am I being penalised because some idiots take the drugs and misuse them negligently then the state makes a universal law ?

Use of illegal drugs in medical experiments is permitted in most scientific institutions.

Other than that, there are actual reasonable arguments for drug decriminalisation.

Unlike the idiotic screaching and screaming.

Quote:So I have my sympathies for the libertarians based on the LSD like case above.

Then again I am against libertarians who would make prostitution as a normal job like any other because it is "freely chosen" work and based on individual liberties. Most prostitutes probably feel coerced and the prostitution is pretty much borderline or fully fledged rape. Then again you can find some women who find prostitution as their ultimate job, desired as a goal from a young age, fully fulfilling (literally) and part of their life purpose & ambition ? ? ? ??? ? ? ?
Am I to stop such a prostitute ? where is she ?

I also have my sympathies for liberterian policies and know many reasonable liberterians on my continent.

I am merely complaining that yours are nuts.

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01-02-2014, 05:45 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
well - looks like we agree on this matter.
By the way, I am on your continent last I heard unless the British channel has a continental fault I am not aware of.
Saying that, there is a real possibility that Britain is a different continent.
There are some pretty strong anti EU sentiments in the UK.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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01-02-2014, 05:49 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(01-02-2014 05:45 PM)Baruch Wrote:  well - looks like we agree on this matter.
By the way, I am on your continent last I heard unless the British channel has a continental fault I am not aware of.
Saying that, there is a real possibility that Britain is a different continent.
There are some pretty strong anti EU sentiments in the UK.

I wouldnt say that there are anti union sentiments in the UK.

You simply believe that your part of the union on the other side of the atlantic Tongue

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01-02-2014, 06:07 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(01-02-2014 05:49 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 05:45 PM)Baruch Wrote:  well - looks like we agree on this matter.
By the way, I am on your continent last I heard unless the British channel has a continental fault I am not aware of.
Saying that, there is a real possibility that Britain is a different continent.
There are some pretty strong anti EU sentiments in the UK.

I wouldnt say that there are anti union sentiments in the UK.

You simply believe that your part of the union on the other side of the atlantic Tongue

There is strong anti-American sentiments in the UK
It is not quite the Margaret Thatcher years !!!

I loved the American Rhetoric from the US when John Kerry called upon
"Our oldest ally, the French" to spite the British !!!!




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01-02-2014, 06:22 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
The actions of your government in the past 20 years says different things. Some here are even mean enought to joke arround "Oh Britain! Thats that US air base in the north atlantic, isn`t it?". I dont doubt that there is protest against to much of this "special releationship". But currently it seems as if you were more comited to that than to anything alse.

Kerry just wanted to spite Bush, France has moved to form a very tight bond with us in the past 40 years. When we speak of our current diplomatic state we refer to it as one of the strongest friendships on the continent.

Which was ironicaly even tied closer when both of our governments and people refused to invade Iraq.

Quite a progress when considering that Germany and France use to go to war with each other once every 30-40 years in a timespan of 800 years.

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01-02-2014, 06:27 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(01-02-2014 06:22 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Quite a progress when considering that Germany and France use to go to war with each other once every 30-40 years in a timespan of 800 years.

You say that as if France and England/Britain/UK didn't go to war every 30-40 years for a timespan of 1000 years.
(or Denmark and Sweden - they get along pretty well these days, no?)

Also, it's more like France used to go to war against parts of Germany while also alongside other parts of Germany.
Tongue

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01-02-2014, 06:34 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(01-02-2014 05:24 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Is frankksj one of those people who lie when debating politics believing that they will never be cought out for it?

A silly thing to do on the internet.

Such a general accusation says more about your position than mine. Obviously if I lied you would quote what I specifically said and the evidence it was lie. If I make valid points that you cannot refute yet don't want to consider, it's easy to just say it's a lie.
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01-02-2014, 06:38 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(01-02-2014 06:27 PM)cjlr Wrote:  You say that as if France and England/Britain/UK didn't go to war every 30-40 years for a timespan of 1000 years.
(or Denmark and Sweden - they get along pretty well these days, no?)

Also, it's more like France used to go to war against parts of Germany while also alongside other parts of Germany.
Tongue

France use to go to war with pritty much everyone.

One thing hard to believe is that the Germans (Prussians) and Brits were the closest allies in Europe for a while. The Brits would fight the French on the seas and in India and America, and the Prussians on land.

heck, there even was a "Kings German Legion" of German soldiers in British service.

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01-02-2014, 06:43 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(01-02-2014 06:38 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  France use to go to war with pritty much everyone.

Everyone used to go to war with pretty much everyone.
Wink

(01-02-2014 06:38 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  One thing hard to believe is that the Germans (Prussians) and Brits were the closest allies in Europe for a while. The Brits would fight the French on the seas and in India and America, and the Prussians on land.

heck, there even was a "Kings German Legion" of German soldiers in British service.

Yes.

To say nothing of the century-plus personal union of the UK with Hanover, one of the German states...

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01-02-2014, 07:33 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
Baruch,The Germans are coming,

Here's the part I don't get. Why not address the real core issue, which I've brought up so many times... Every libertarian I know advocates the compromise which allows voters to pass whatever coercive laws they want, with the only caveat being that people are allowed to leave if they find the laws too oppressive. That's all we're asking for. It's one very small, simple, black & white rule: If you're going to pass a law that coerces people into doing something against their will, do it at the state or local level, and grant all citizens freedom of mobility to relocate from one state to another. This way you guys on the left can wield your clubs and beat each other silly over economic issues. And those on the right can beat each other over moral issues. We libertarians can find our own little corner where we all agree to lay down our clubs and let everybody do their own thing. And we all can just get along. This compromise benefits not only libertarians, but liberals and conservatives as well, since it allows you to live peacefully side-by-side and focus on inventing, building and creating, rather than trying to force the other side to do it your way. The only time it becomes a real issue is with interstate pollution, where the states need to agree to uniform federal (or global) standards.

We libertarians are willing to compromise, let you live your life however you want. It's the rest however who will not compromise and insist that their way is the only way, and they need national laws which cover every place that a citizen can legally live so it's impossible to escape.

So why don't you address this issue? Sure, our views about freedom and liberty are totally the opposite of yours, but that's immaterial since we're willing to let you pass whatever laws you want as long as you just let us leave if we find them too much to bear. Please, then, rather than debating irrelevant issues like what is coercion, address why you need your views to be universally enforced on people who live on the opposite side of the country, and why you can't be content to live in a state where the laws work like you want, and just let other people in other states do the same.
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