Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
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01-02-2014, 07:39 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(01-02-2014 06:43 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(01-02-2014 06:38 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  France use to go to war with pritty much everyone.

Everyone used to go to war with pretty much everyone.

Not here in Switzerland. They've been following the same system I advocate for nearly 700 years. The last time there was any fighting here was during the time of Napolean. While every other country tried to have one national system and fight bloody wars to impose their religion, language and culture on others, in Switzerland, they just agreed to live and let live, peacefully coexist. Some cantons are Catholic. Others Protestant. Some Liberal. Others Conservative. Some speak French, others Italian, many German, and in the mountains some still speak Romansh, the ancient Roman language. Nobody tries to change the others, nobody fights wars. The result is nearly every city and town has well-preserved historic centers that are often over 1,000 years old, whereas most of the rest of Europe has been destroyed and rebuilt in wars. And by living in peace, the Swiss now enjoy the highest rate of household savings in the world (about $700k per household). Stable prices that span decades, relatively minor boom and bust business cycles, no major bubbles, etc. Why is this so unpalatable to everyone but libertarians? Is it really worth it to spend all your resources fighting all those wars trying to force everybody else to do things your way?
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01-02-2014, 08:19 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(01-02-2014 07:39 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Not here in Switzerland. They've been following the same system I advocate for nearly 700 years. The last time there was any fighting here was during the time of Napolean.

Right then

(01-02-2014 07:39 PM)frankksj Wrote:  While every other country tried to have one national system and fight bloody wars to impose their religion, language and culture on others, in Switzerland, they just agreed to live and let live, peacefully coexist. Some cantons are Catholic. Others Protestant. Some Liberal. Others Conservative. Some speak French, others Italian, many German, and in the mountains some still speak Romansh, the ancient Roman language. Nobody tries to change the others, nobody fights wars.

Maybe you should read history.

(01-02-2014 07:39 PM)frankksj Wrote:  The result is nearly every city and town has well-preserved historic centers that are often over 1,000 years old, whereas most of the rest of Europe has been destroyed and rebuilt in wars. And by living in peace, the Swiss now enjoy the highest rate of household savings in the world (about $700k per household). Stable prices that span decades, relatively minor boom and bust business cycles, no major bubbles, etc. Why is this so unpalatable to everyone but libertarians? Is it really worth it to spend all your resources fighting all those wars trying to force everybody else to do things your way?

It's okay to like Switzerland. There's a lot to like there.

It's really not necessary to invent history to that end, mind you.

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01-02-2014, 11:39 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(01-02-2014 02:40 PM)JAH Wrote:  Public rail transit and local public transit in general has been a money loser for many decades now. To suggest that it would not be so if it remained in private hands is not correct.

Had it been left to private hands, these money losing ventures would simply not have proliferated.

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01-02-2014, 11:47 PM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(01-02-2014 05:24 PM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Is frankksj one of those people who lie when debating politics believing that they will never be cought out for it?

A silly thing to do on the internet.

Is 'The Germans are coming' one of those people who rapes children and eats kittens?

...come on now, we all recognize an implied accusation, even when it's phrased as a question. If you want to accuse another poster of deceitful patterns, you need to back it up.

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02-02-2014, 06:50 AM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2014 06:56 AM by The Germans are coming.)
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(01-02-2014 07:39 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Not here in Switzerland. They've been following the same system I advocate for nearly 700 years. The last time there was any fighting here was during the time of Napolean. While every other country tried to have one national system and fight bloody wars to impose their religion, language and culture on others, in Switzerland, they just agreed to live and let live, peacefully coexist.

No.

Switzerland practicaly had no economy for 600 years and sold it`s citizens as merceneries into pritty much everywhere.

Swiss troops were involved in every major conflict before WW1 as merceneries.


Quote:Some cantons are Catholic. Others Protestant. Some Liberal. Others Conservative. Some speak French, others Italian, many German, and in the mountains some still speak Romansh, the ancient Roman language.

And some cantons dont even have seperation of religion and state.

How convinient of you to forgeting to mention that.

In fact, some of the Swiss cantons harbor some of the worst and repulsive christian fanatics in Europe who broadcast theri vile and often outright antisemetic rubbish into our beloved Reich. The high alps and secluded valleys have always been a refuge for religious fanatics from all over Europe, from calivinists to pope`s ass lickers.

The Swiss are amongst the most vile people on the entire planet, campain posters of the constantly winning far right party in Switzerland campained against "Violent German and French criminal comuters and guest workers" after they could no longer campain against muslim immigrants since they inforced legislation restricting their immigration.
If there is a country on this continent that treats every other country like shit, it`s Switzerland.

Quote: Nobody tries to change the others, nobody fights wars.

And most of the country is horrificaly backwards, because legislative power is given to a bunch of cowbuggering farmers in the deepest nowheres of the mountains through an idiotic system of direct democracy.

This resulted in the Swiss having some of the most backwards laws in Europe in place for years.

Switzerland was the last country in Europe to give women the right to vote.
The last country to abolish the death penalty.
And right up to the 1980s having a child or sex out of wedlock was a punishable offense in Switzerland - but only for women!
Actualy right up to the 1970s women in Switzerland who had sex out of wedlock were forced to be steralised because they were deemd "to antisocial for society". The last forced sterilization of a woman in Swtzerland was in 1979.

Your wonderfull alpine utopia is even less socialy perfect as some redneck swamp.

Quote: The result is nearly every city and town has well-preserved historic centers that are often over 1,000 years old, whereas most of the rest of Europe has been destroyed and rebuilt in wars.

Nonsence! The most well preserved city of Europe is Barcelona. And everyone knows that here. You are obviously not European. Obviously you havent seen much of this continent, and if archetecture is an indicator for living standerds then pigs can fly.

Quote: And by living in peace, the Swiss now enjoy the highest rate of household savings in the world (about $700k per household).

Made by a manufacturing sector that depends on French, Italian and German comuter workers and a financial sector that launders the money of the Italian mob.

How wonderfull!

Quote: Stable prices that span decades, relatively minor boom and bust business cycles, no major bubbles, etc. Why is this so unpalatable to everyone but libertarians?

Because it`s banking sector took part in creating the bubble by selling those toxic papers and laundering the money of crooks. The entire swiss banking sector is ran by crooks, and if you would have ever lived in Europe you would know how much the rest of Europe hates those sods. They are known to have financed the Iranian missle program for trade benefits by circumventing the embargo, they are known to help tax evaders from all accross the continent, they are known to have launderd the money of the Italian mob without even giving a damn about the implications.

The Swiss are one of the main funders of organised crime in all of Europe through laundering mob money.

And besides that, their population is hopelessly stuck in a mental state of the 19th century.

I wouldnt even fly over that place, unless it was to carpet bomb it.

Quote: Is it really worth it to spend all your resources fighting all those wars trying to force everybody else to do things your way?

Hypocrit! The Swiss UBS financed the Iranian missile program, launderd terror organisation money, took care of the money of such wonderfull and charming people like Saddam Hussain and Gaddafi, bypassed the embargo on Belarus to help them sell army helicopters to Mugabe and launderd the money of various other regimes selling weapons to everyone.

Yeah! The Swiss arent at war, they just make money out of wars.

What a wonderfull thing to do! not.

You may impress some Americans who dont have the faintest clue of Europe by whining the saronade of the perfect alpine utopia.

But Europeans who know how hopeless that place is, will not be fooled.

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02-02-2014, 06:53 AM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(01-02-2014 11:47 PM)toadaly Wrote:  Is 'The Germans are coming' one of those people who rapes children and eats kittens?

...come on now, we all recognize an implied accusation, even when it's phrased as a question. If you want to accuse another poster of deceitful patterns, you need to back it up.

In every European country in which public rail was privatised - private rail went to trash, shreds and rubbish.

Buying a train ticket from London to Edinburg is more expensive than buying a flight from London to Madrid to Edinburg to London.

And parts of British Rail are owned by Deutsche Bahn - a state owned German company.

Yes! You have heard right. Private buisness screwed up British rail so badly that it got partialy bought up by a state owned German company.

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02-02-2014, 07:59 AM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(01-02-2014 07:33 PM)frankksj Wrote:  Baruch,The Germans are coming,

Here's the part I don't get. Why not address the real core issue, which I've brought up so many times... Every libertarian I know advocates the compromise which allows voters to pass whatever coercive laws they want, with the only caveat being that people are allowed to leave if they find the laws too oppressive. That's all we're asking for. It's one very small, simple, black & white rule: If you're going to pass a law that coerces people into doing something against their will, do it at the state or local level, and grant all citizens freedom of mobility to relocate from one state to another. This way you guys on the left can wield your clubs and beat each other silly over economic issues. And those on the right can beat each other over moral issues. We libertarians can find our own little corner where we all agree to lay down our clubs and let everybody do their own thing. And we all can just get along. This compromise benefits not only libertarians, but liberals and conservatives as well, since it allows you to live peacefully side-by-side and focus on inventing, building and creating, rather than trying to force the other side to do it your way. The only time it becomes a real issue is with interstate pollution, where the states need to agree to uniform federal (or global) standards.

We libertarians are willing to compromise, let you live your life however you want. It's the rest however who will not compromise and insist that their way is the only way, and they need national laws which cover every place that a citizen can legally live so it's impossible to escape.

So why don't you address this issue? Sure, our views about freedom and liberty are totally the opposite of yours, but that's immaterial since we're willing to let you pass whatever laws you want as long as you just let us leave if we find them too much to bear. Please, then, rather than debating irrelevant issues like what is coercion, address why you need your views to be universally enforced on people who live on the opposite side of the country, and why you can't be content to live in a state where the laws work like you want, and just let other people in other states do the same.

isnt that the case already

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
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02-02-2014, 10:59 AM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
@The Germans are coming,

I've lived in Europe for over 12 years and visited most every country in Western Europe, and your characterization of the Swiss is totally not true. The Economist took international studies to determine best country to be born in, and as usual, Switzerland was #1. Mercer also takes international polling to determine the cities with the highest quality of living, and Swiss cities dominate the list. The Swiss passport is one of the most widely accepted for visa-free travel.

It's true that because they allow each canton to operate autonomously, in the more backwards, redneck cantons you get more backwards, redneck laws, while in liberal cantons, like Zürich, are very progressive and modern. Therefore, Switzerland was very late to have universal women's suffrage rights country-wide, BUT, the progressive cantons had women's voting and equal rights long before. So, if you were a feminist born into one a repressive canton, you were guaranteed the right to move and relocate to a more progressive canton. As opposed to other countries which do everything at the national level so that if 51% of the country is, say, against equal rights for women, then a feminist has nowhere to go to escape oppression.

The only time I hear people speak poorly of the Swiss are in countries where the governments are so inefficient that the taxes are extremely high. Because Switzerland's taxation is mainly at the local level, and the governments are lean and efficient, the taxes are low, so wealthy people from neighboring high-tax countries often relocate. To me it's baffling their anger over this and insistence that Switzerland must raise its tax rates or else face economic blockades. If I were, say, French, I'd look at it the opposite and demand from our politicians: "Why is it that in our country we pay >50% taxes and the infrastructure is falling apart, whereas next door they pay a fraction of that and get must better infrastructure. This shows we must become more efficient." Instead the reaction is a jealous one where they just the want Switzerland to be as bloated and inefficient with the same high taxes. Imagine if private companies did this.

Your example of British Rail is also full of it. It was never a free market system. Even after the so-called privatization, the government set the fares. And the government picked which corporations could provide which services. I've said all along that the worst system of all is a crony-capitalist system where you have private, non-transparent companies, controlled by a government which picks winners and losers.

However, when the privatization consists of a REAL free market, it's been a huge success. I mentioned, for example, Nasa getting out of space travel. Now it's unregulated and unrestricted. The cost of getting payloads in space is unregulated. And the costs have plummeted 90% due to competition. Obviously if the government "privatized" Nasa the way the UK did with British Rail, it would have been a disaster too.
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02-02-2014, 11:38 AM
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
@The Germans are coming,

also, your comments re: Iran show not only ignorance, but inhumane cruelty. It's true that Switzerland remains neutral and doesn't interfere with other countries' internal affairs, like imposing the sanctions and trade restrictions you're advocating.

But remember that Iran was a modern, progressive country until the 1950's. They had a thriving, open feminist movement and equal rights for women before much of Europe. Their auto sector was bigger than the UK's, they had a space program, and respected universities. Tehran universities physics department made great contributions, such as the first calculation of the speed of light. No mullahs, no burkahs, none of the crazy backward stuff they have now. So what changed? Oh, yeah, the US and UK did exactly what you're advocating--interfered with other countries' internal affairs. First they published anti-Iran propaganda to win support at home and try to fuel discontent within Iran, and then overthrew their peaceful, democratic government and replaced it with an oppressive dictator who let the US and UK steal all Iran's oil and not pay for it. The decades of repression and poverty led to the Islamic revolution and the state they are today.

And even the current sanctions... Remember, the US has a monetary system of a fiat currency which has been tried over 3,000 times and has a 100% perfect record of failure--it has always collapsed within 50 years, and taken down the economy with it. The only way to prolong the cycle is to create demand, so, within 1 year of switching to a Fiat currency, President Nixon signed a treaty with Saudi Arabia to provide them unrestricted protection if they ensured oil was only sold in US dollars to keep up a demand for the dollar as the world's only reserve country. Since then EVERY SINGLE TIME without exception that any oil producing country has tried to sell oil in anything but dollars, the US has immediately attacked, invaded, or done a complete blockade to prevent the export of oil. Iran is no different. They had been a backwards country ever since the US overthrew them in the 50's, and had been anti-West every since. But when Iran announced plans to sell oil in Euros, within 90 days the US imposed crippling sanctions, blocked their oil exports, but rather than admitting what it's about, they said it was because it suddenly occurred to them that Iran was a rogue state, an "axis of evil".

Your defense of the Iran blockade shows you obviously lap up all the propaganda and believe everything the government says without stopping to do some fact checking. Need I remind of how this mentality has affected Germany in he past? And what about the people of Iran? I've traveled all over the middle east, and have several Iranian friends. Iranians are human beings like everyone else. They have the same desires as everyone else. They want to fall in love, raise a family, provide a safe, secure home for their children. You guys are depriving them of that, killing millions of innocent people due to your sanctions. Remember when US Secty of State Madeleine Albright was asked about a UN report that US sanctions had killed half a million Iraq children, and she replied that it was worth it?

If every country acted like Switzerland and stayed within their borders, didn't attack anybody else, didn't try to change other countries, didn't block trade, etc. the world would be a radically different place. While you may not like Switzerland's policies, they have caused no great harm to anybody else--unlike Germany, the US, the UK, etc. And remember Germany's past. If you had a political system like Switzerland where the power was de-centralized, de-concentrated, dispersed and distributed as much as possible, Germany wouldn't have caused two world wars. All the great atrocities throughout human history have been because of the system you're defending: concentrating and centralizing power, and one group trying to force its ways on another group.
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02-02-2014, 12:10 PM (This post was last modified: 02-02-2014 12:19 PM by The Germans are coming.)
RE: Why are American liberterians so absurdly insane?
(02-02-2014 10:59 AM)frankksj Wrote:  @The Germans are coming,

I've lived in Europe for over 12 years and visited most every country in Western Europe, and your characterization of the Swiss is totally not true. The Economist took international studies to determine best country to be born in, and as usual, Switzerland was #1. Mercer also takes international polling to determine the cities with the highest quality of living, and Swiss cities dominate the list. The Swiss passport is one of the most widely accepted for visa-free travel.

Oh what a load of bollocks.

The standard of living determined by a liberterian British journal?

Do you know what indicators are part of determining the living standerd of a nation?
crime statistics, economic freedom, personal freedome, social security, social conflict, legal system, fertility rate, cost of living, household income, scientific and educational institutions, transport availability, food price, free press, government trasparicy, buisness transparicy......

to name a few

These calculations are undertook by institutions such as the UN in cooperation with institutions such as universities that do studies on social development, you know - institutions which actualy have the resources to do that, and it has been determined that the top 5 countries with the highest living standers are:

1: Norway
2: Australia
3: USA
4: Netherlands
5: Germany
6: New Zealand
7: Ireland
8: Sweden
and Switzerland at number 9.

The crudentials with which you determine the living standerds are absolutly pathetic and of a nature of selectiveness based on bias!

Israelis cannot travel into any foreign country that is Islamic, yet the Israeli living standard is numer 16 in global comparision.
Personal income???? Germany has the lowest personal income in Europe yet has a better standerd than Switzerland.
And if personal income and low taxation is such a enormous and important indication of living standerd, more imporant than any other than this is the country you should be living in and praising about:

[Image: 750px-Flag_of_Saudi_Arabia.svg.png]

Since it literaly has no taxes and the highest personal income on average in the world.

Your irrationalist way of making points, comes back to bite you in your own ass.

Quote:It's true that because they allow each canton to operate autonomously, in the more backwards, redneck cantons you get more backwards, redneck laws, while in liberal cantons, like Zürich, are very progressive and modern.

What a pathetic excuse!

One might aswell have some 1960s Mississipi moron argue "Yall dont need to do anything against racism down here, cause their aint none in the North!"

How old are you? 13?

Thats like some child that does not understand the concept of responsibility whining arround an excuse by pointing at others. People and governments are responsible for their actions and to be held accountable. To simply whine arround "other places do that and that and that" doesn`t take away that resposibility.

pfff!!!! Imagine a court trial for a murder and the defendant whines at the prosecuter: "Why do you keep whining about the murder and dont ever mention the cake I made for my dad at his birthday"

Quote:Therefore, Switzerland was very late to have universal women's suffrage rights country-wide, BUT, the progressive cantons had women's voting and equal rights long before. So, if you were a feminist born into one a repressive canton, you were guaranteed the right to move and relocate to a more progressive canton.

Demanding a womans right to vote and to legal equality is not feminism! It is common human decency!!!!

Quote:As opposed to other countries which do everything at the national level so that if 51% of the country is, say, against equal rights for women, then a feminist has nowhere to go to escape oppression.

Nonsence!!!

Womans rights to vote were established by federal governments against the resistance of the backwards villages filled with inbreeds and cowfuckers. It is these reclusive and rpulsive places that constantly stand against any social reform that brings liberty. And not a federal government.

The very fact that Switzerlands hillbilly local government constantly opposed womens equality until it had the image of being Europes Saudi Arabia is proof of that!

Which other country in Europe, no... which other country in the entire fucking world! - forcefully steralised women who had sex out of wedlock up to 1979!?!???!!!!!!!!

Quote:The only time I hear people speak poorly of the Swiss are in countries where the governments are so inefficient that the taxes are extremely high.

If you try to go into the attack by making a counter argument you would be better off by informing yourself about the FACTS

Germany is the largest, most powerfull and richest economy in Europe!

And of course, you are sleazy enought to ignore completly that I outlined the reason for German, French and Italian protests against Swiss banking - being that the Swiss support tax evasion, financial fraud and organised crime with it`s actions and laws in those countries!

Quote: Because Switzerland's taxation is mainly at the local level, and the governments are lean and efficient, the taxes are low, so wealthy people from neighboring high-tax countries often relocate.

I didn`t critizise Swiss tax policy. I critisised that the Swiss support criminal acvtivity in all of Europe!

You also ignore that I pointed out how the Swiss treat French, German and Italian citizens like trash!

And "relocating" is a very neat way of renaming what is actualy called: Criminal Taxevasion.

Are you somekind of loyer or something? Do you also have some neat words for these terms:

Laundering drugmoney.
Laundering profits from financial fraud.
Laundering profits from human trafficing and modern slavery.
Laundering profits from raceteering.
Laundering money from abstruction of government funds.

You consistently ignore that! Despite the fact that even the Italian Berlusconi government pointed out in a brief moment of sanity, that one of the top 5 reasons why anti mafia investigations are so hard - is that the Swiss banking sector helps the mob.

Quote: To me it's baffling their anger over this and insistence that Switzerland must raise its tax rates or else face economic blockades.

Look boy! If you build another strawman in your next post, I will rip out it`s sticks and I will skullfuck you with it untill you scream "I am sorry mein Herr!" as a fit for the rest of your life.

I NEVER DEMANDED THAT THE SWISS LOWER THEIR TAXES!


NO EUROPEAN GOVERMENT DEMANDS THAT THE SWISS LOWER THEIR TAXES



EUROPEAN COUNTRIES MAIN PROTEST AGAINST THE SWISS GOVERNMENT; IS THAT THEY SUPPORT AND MAKE PROFIT FROM CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR IN THEIR NEIGHBOURING COUNTRIES.


Have I made myself clear now!?



Quote: If I were, say, French, I'd look at it the opposite and demand from our politicians: "Why is it that in our country we pay >50% taxes and the infrastructure is falling apart, whereas next door they pay a fraction of that and get must better infrastructure. This shows we must become more efficient." Instead the reaction is a jealous one where they just the want Switzerland to be as bloated and inefficient with the same high taxes. Imagine if private companies did this.

AGAIN! Shove that strawman right up your ass in the most painfull possible way and finaly fucking start adressing the actual argument that I give!!!!

Quote:Your example of British Rail is also full of it. It was never a free market system. Even after the so-called privatization, the government set the fares. And the government picked which corporations could provide which services. I've said all along that the worst system of all is a crony-capitalist system where you have private, non-transparent companies, controlled by a government which picks winners and losers.

Oh how often I have heard this argument. It`s the same with communists, when you confront them with the horros of the soviet union they simply whine "But the soviet union was not real communism!".

It does not matter who the government decides to buy the previously state owned buisness or if it gives those buisnesses subsidations. It still is a private buisness.

Quote:However, when the privatization consists of a REAL free market, it's been a huge success. I mentioned, for example, Nasa getting out of space travel. Now it's unregulated and unrestricted. The cost of getting payloads in space is unregulated. And the costs have plummeted 90% due to competition. Obviously if the government "privatized" Nasa the way the UK did with British Rail, it would have been a disaster too.

Oh dear. That pathetic mystical being. There are two versions of it, both used and worshiped by your kind of people and the extremist on the far left.

"Real communism" and "Real free market". Both of those are just forms of mental masturbation, illusions of a perfect utopian concept that ignore the very fact that the guiding principle in social development should not be dreams but reason!

Space?!!!!!!!!!! Space????? Are you fucking serious? The best argument you can give for the privatisation of something "government owned" is SPACE????

Was space government owned?
Did government build inferstructure in space?
How many government buisnesses are there in space?
How much of them were sold?

I dont even need a counter argument for this pathetic example.

I just need to point out to you that There is NOTHING in space! Nothing that could be privatised!

And if you create just one single strawman in your next reply! Meaning: If you pretend again that I said something that I didn`t! You will suffer the fullest extent of my savagry!

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