Why are Atheists afraid of death?
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15-04-2014, 10:30 AM
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
(15-04-2014 10:22 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  "So consciousness continues to exist, but not in anyway that is observable, verifiable or measurable.
In other words magic."

You accuse my assertions to be "magic" and I agree. Of course it is. But existence ITSELF is magical.

Oh gods what a deepity.

You're one small step away from "existence exists" in your pseudoprofundity, you know that?

(15-04-2014 10:22 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  The universe doesn't need a supernatural being for it to be considered magical.

Certainly not to be vacuously asserted as such, no, but an actual coherent and substantive definition would be more useful as a starting point.

(15-04-2014 10:22 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  The fact that anything EXISTS right now is magic in and of itself.

Look, just declaring shit doesn't make it true.

"We don't know how the universe began therefore it's magic therefore magic exists therefore anything can be true for no reason".

Not particularly compelling.

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15-04-2014, 10:35 AM
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
Facepalm
(15-04-2014 10:22 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  
(15-04-2014 09:55 AM)Blackhand293 Wrote:  Im quite sure I will never understand what happened before the big bang, quantum theory makes my head hurt. However I don't expect what ever happened before then to conform tovthe laws that came into being after the fact.

And asserting that it was magic is presupposing that a supernatural being was behind it. Again the god of the gaps.

Also read the post before replying. I never said it was magic. I said defaulting to god caused it is a logical fallacy.

"So consciousness continues to exist, but not in anyway that is observable, verifiable or measurable.
In other words magic."

You accuse my assertions to be "magic" and I agree. Of course it is. But existence ITSELF is magical. The universe doesn't need a supernatural being for it to be considered magical. The fact that anything EXISTS right now is magic in and of itself.

Facepalm

The requirement of evidence to back your claim does not disappear because it hurts your feelings, reality does not care about your feefees.
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15-04-2014, 10:41 AM
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
(15-04-2014 10:25 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  And now you're started to sound more like a christian.

Yeah, I call poe...
Nothing to see here....


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15-04-2014, 10:47 AM
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
(15-04-2014 10:18 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(15-04-2014 08:15 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  Consciousness DOES exist outside of our brain. There are plenty of scientists who agree with me, and they are not trolls. Skip to 6:00. This video somewhat explains it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIJHJzDQcRM


One scientist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hagelin

Quote: His position on consciousness and its relationship to the unified field is not accepted by other physicists.

(and some clever soundbites to make it look like other scientists say the same thing when they don't)

There are many scientists on this forum but none of them agree with you that consciousness exists outside of the brain. You are cherry picking a single scientist out of a scientific community made up of millions.

The burden of proof is on you to say how consciousness can exist without a brain.

Go on I dare you. Suggest a mechanism by which consciousness can exist outside of the brain. Suggest a way to demonstrate this on demand.
Also, if consciousness existed outside of our brain, then when our brain goes to sleep (i.e, general anesthesia), we would still be completely conscious. (A different twist to your earlier point about experiencing anesthesia being like death.)

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15-04-2014, 10:56 AM
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
(15-04-2014 09:59 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  
(15-04-2014 09:48 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  No. There is another possibility. What if nature is the first cause and always existed. You can't logically throw out that possibility. There does not have to be a supernatural cause for existence.

"What if nature is the first cause and always existed'

That is a possibility... but by definition that is also a supernatural phenomenon. That's my point... that the existence of nature itself is a magical thing

Nature is supernatural?!!! That makes absolutely no sense.

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15-04-2014, 11:00 AM (This post was last modified: 15-04-2014 11:22 AM by John.)
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
This:
(14-04-2014 10:58 PM)Leefboy Wrote:  Most atheists see death as the ultimate end to our lives... an eternal state of darkness. But if you think about it, this can only be true if we have a unique, metaphysical quality such as a soul.
...coupled with this:
(14-04-2014 10:58 PM)Leefboy Wrote:  If we died and truly remained unconscious forever like we think we will, that would mean we were each assigned a soul that had the opportunity to see the world for a split second and then went back to sleep.
...and this:
(14-04-2014 10:58 PM)Leefboy Wrote:  It's logical to assume that when we die our consciousness, or simply our ability to experience reality, lives on in SOME form.
...and this:
(14-04-2014 10:58 PM)Leefboy Wrote:  If we are "nothing" we may as well just be anything else that is conscious in the universe.
...and this:
(14-04-2014 10:58 PM)Leefboy Wrote:  How exactly does consciousness live on? Well that's an [...] issue with a lot of different [...] theories, but the one that makes the most sense is that we are in fact all conscious beings experiencing life one at a time.
...and this:
(14-04-2014 10:58 PM)Leefboy Wrote:  This addresses the issue of how there are multiple, different conscious beings in the universe and how new ones are coming into being. We are simply all of them (obviously we can't understand how this works but there is a lot of truth to this).
...and this:
(14-04-2014 10:58 PM)Leefboy Wrote:  The main point i'm trying to address here is that logically life continues on after death simply because of the fact that we can't be aware of our own unconsciousness.
...and this:
(14-04-2014 10:58 PM)Leefboy Wrote:  It's our consciousness and ability to experience the world that won't [die forever].
...and this:
(15-04-2014 01:18 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  All I'm trying to say is that if we don't have a soul that "carries" our consciousness, how can we remain unconscious forever? So naturally, we become the next thing that's conscious... like a new baby that's born.
...and this:
(15-04-2014 01:18 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  There's no difference between the consciousness of this new baby and the consciousness you have now, even though it SEEMS like it does.
...and this:
(15-04-2014 03:57 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  Death is not the end to everything because consciousness is immortal.
...and this:
(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  It's hard to explain this... but let's say there's two components to a human being. Let's call the first component his or her "ego", which is everything that makes that person unique. The second component is his or her "consciousness", or simply his capability to be aware of existence. Egos and subjective experiences are different. Consciousness is identical.
...and this:
(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  I'm arguing that while egos can die, consciousness can't.
...and especially this:
(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  A physical reality can't exist without there being someone to perceive it.
...and this:
(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  But it's IMPOSSIBLE to be "forever unconscious" because reality DEPENDS on consciousness for it to exist.
...and this:
(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  So consciousness does exist outside of our physical bodies.
...and this:
(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  In fact, everything in the universe - time, space, and matter, all exist within consciousness, not the other way around. They simply wouldn't exist outside of consciousness.
...and this:
(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  Science is unreliable and we all know it can never explain everything in the universe.
...and this:
(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  Science supports the loss of consciousness of OUR BODY. This same consciousness doesn't continue... but your ability to be aware of existence will.

... is nothing but an astonishingly huge pile of Argumenta ex culo.

The main thing you manage to bring up in support of any of this, as paraphrased by me and explicitly stated by you, is:

Just THINK ABOUT IT!

To be more precise, here are some of the more noteworthy points:

(14-04-2014 10:58 PM)Leefboy Wrote:  I think Alan Watts explains what I'm trying to explain fairly well.

An inspirational video of woo, which incidentally employs your main argument: Just think about it!

(15-04-2014 03:57 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  Here is a quote I found:
"It is not possible to be aware of being unconscious from your own perspective. You cannot be aware of not being aware. You can be less aware/conscious, such as when you are asleep, but not completely unconscious (dead), because time would stand still for you. A billion years could pass, and you would not know it."
In other words you are immortal because consciousness still exists in the universe even after your body dies.

An anonymous quote about something which doesn't lend credence to the point you're making immediately after it.

(15-04-2014 08:15 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  Consciousness DOES exist outside of our brain. There are plenty of scientists who agree with me, and they are not trolls. This video somewhat explains it.

A compilation of all kinds of people with views about all kinds of stuff, among whom one (1) scientist (John Hagelin) has some notion of equivocating the unified field theory with universal consciousness (whatever that's supposed to mean, I'm sure you'll find it to support whatever you're believing).

And that's it. There's nothing more. Oh... but there IS. Here's a representative compilation of all the weird, mind-numbing, crazy stuff that is all over your posts:

(15-04-2014 01:18 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  In fact, nothing about what I'm saying is scientific.
(15-04-2014 01:18 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  This only sounds crazy because as humans we are limited to thinking like humans.
(15-04-2014 01:28 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  Everything I'm saying is not science. It's philosophy I don't have to provide evidence.
(15-04-2014 01:44 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  I'm not religious or atheist. I'm somewhere in between.
I guess it's possible for someone to be confused enough as to not know what to think.
(15-04-2014 03:57 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  This is not science. This is not religion. This is logic.
Science employs logic. Religion tries to. You fail to.
(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  You have to stop thinking scientifically to understand this.
Hence, you have to stop thinking logically to understand this. Facepalm
(14-04-2014 10:58 PM)Leefboy Wrote:  You don't need faith to believe in life after death... just logic.
(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  I just want to know if this makes sense to you or not. So stop asking for evidence.
(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  How can science explain infinity or where the matter from the big bang came from? I mean forget science, our minds can't even COMPREHEND what infinity or a causeless cause is, even though they have to exist in the physical universe.
[Image: WTFyousaying.jpg]
(15-04-2014 01:18 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  This is very hard to explain you just have to think about it.
(15-04-2014 08:15 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  The best I can hope for is for you to acknowledge that there's SOME truth to all of this.
Utterly failed.

(14-04-2014 10:58 PM)Leefboy Wrote:  I'd like to hear your thoughts.

You're welcome!

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15-04-2014, 11:01 AM
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
(15-04-2014 10:41 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(15-04-2014 10:25 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  And now you're started to sound more like a christian.

Yeah, I call poe...
Nothing to see here....

Can't believe you didn't give your famous words to the troll.!?


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15-04-2014, 11:03 AM
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
(15-04-2014 11:01 AM)Bows and Arrows Wrote:  
(15-04-2014 10:41 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Yeah, I call poe...
Nothing to see here....

Can't believe you didn't give your famous words to the troll.!?

Sometimes they are just not worth it.


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15-04-2014, 11:15 AM
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  The introduction isn't irrelevant. It's relevant in explaining my thought process. His response to it was irrelevant and off-topic entirely.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  I mean, if you're religious, the issue of death doesn't nag at you for your entire life because you have an all-convenient reassurance that life continues after death.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Wrong. Religionists worry about going to hell a lot.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  Just an introduction paragraph. Irrelevant to my main point.

Given the above quotes, I think you dismissed Bucky Ball's point without actually answering it. You stated that believing in an afterlife makes one immune to death "nagging at you". Bucky Ball pointed out that the fear of the afterlife could "nag at you" with equal or even superior intensity. How do you account for the fear of the afterlife among the religious?

I am concerned that you decided to ignore his point when he was clearly on topic and making a valid counter argument to a statement you made. Why did you dismiss him as being "off-topic entirely"? I don't know how we can continue to promote a real discussion if anyone who makes an argument that you happen to not appreciate gets dismissed as being off topic, or irrelevant.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  It's hard to explain this... but let's say there's two components to a human being. Let's call the first component his or her "ego", which is everything that makes that person unique. The second component is his or her "consciousness", or simply his capability to be aware of existence. Egos and subjective experiences are different. Consciousness is identical.

I will try to explain why your theory isn't convincing me. You have a very clear definition of "ego" and "consciousness" but I do not think they accurately represent human beings. Simply you stating that they do is not enough. I need actual evidence.

Take for example that no human being can possess an ego without the ability to be conscious in the first place. I do not understand why you think consciousness is not enough to describe the subjective experiences of one human being. With a label that covers the entire experience, there is nothing left to identify.

I am unconvinced that there are two parts to a human being, and I am unconvinced that such a statement means anything at all in practical terms. If I choose the right terms I could divide the human experience into as many parts as I want if it suited my purposes.

This is why thinking and reasoning scientifically is so important, because it demands a high standard of evidence and reasoning that can be recreated among peers to achieve the same results. It is the only reliable means human beings have for determining the difference between opinions and facts. Based on the information you have given me, I would consider your perspective merely an opinion, not an accurate means of understanding what makes up human beings and the nature of consciousness.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  Atheists believe that both are egos and consciousness will die.

Atheists do not engage in faith based "belief". Atheism is not a religion. We accept scientific facts based on a tried and tested method. Even then we are skeptical of everything all the time.

I doubt I am the only one who is unconvinced by your terms, but even if I was, I alone am enough to refute your contention that all atheists accept your definitions. I am unconvinced the the Atheist community views consciousness identically to you.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  I'm arguing that while egos can die, consciousness can't. A physical reality can't exist without there being someone to perceive it.

I think this is where your theory really comes apart at the seams. It is a fact that the human species has not always existed. There were millions of years in which the universe contained not even a single human consciousness. Are you really suggesting that during that time the universe did not actually exist and that it merely sprung into existence as a result of human consciousness? When we die are you really suggesting that it all blinks out of existence since we are no longer available to experience it?

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  It's natural to think that it can, because we see people dying and the universe still spinning without them and we believe that those people are forever unconscious.

This is another problematic point. Bucky Ball pointed out very succinctly how being "forever unconscious" and being dead are not the same thing.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  But it's IMPOSSIBLE to be "forever unconscious" because reality DEPENDS on consciousness for it to exist. Before you argue against this, let me ask you... if you've never been born does the universe even exist? It simply doesn't no matter how you argue against it. This concept applies to death as well, since being dead is exactly the same thing as never having been born.

If I were to have never been born, the universe would still exist. Of course, I wouldn't know that since I would by definition be unable to experience anything. However, that reality logically leads to a conclusion of subjective consciousness that ends at the point of death. The simple fact that when I die my friends and family will not cease to experience the universe is enough to understand that only my subjective experience is changing. Theirs will remain until that time comes for them also.

Being dead is not exactly the same as never having lived at all. The difference is that a life took place. Honestly this is really basic stuff. I am surprised again and again by these obviously untrue statements that are claimed as fact without any evidence to support them.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  So consciousness does exist outside of our physical bodies. In fact, everything in the universe - time, space, and matter, all exist within consciousness, not the other way around. They simply wouldn't exist outside of consciousness. You have to stop thinking scientifically to understand this. Science is unreliable and we all know it can never explain everything in the universe. How can science explain infinity or where the matter from the big bang came from? I mean forget science, our minds can't even COMPREHEND what infinity or a causeless cause is, even though they have to exist in the physical universe.

Leefboy, I am not going to suspend scientific thinking and critical judgement. I can see that you don't appreciate the scientific method, but I do. If your theory had any truth to it, it wouldn't require people to stop asking for evidence. If we can't verify that what you are saying has any truth to it, you are unreliable, not science.

The fact that you expect science to explain everything right now is indicative of how little you understand the scientific method or its significance in modern society. Science isn't a religion. It can't just make things up as it goes along. The whole point is that hard evidence is required for everything so that we can be as certain as possible of what we think we know. Dismissing it as "unreliable" is denying the uncomfortable fact that it isn't the method that is unreliable, its us. Our means of determining how we know what we think we know is flawed and always has been. Science is the antidote by setting up a method to determine facts despite our limitations. In the end, we know a little more every day, but not everything. We also make a lot of mistakes which have to be corrected later. It is an imperfect system, but it is literally the best thing we've got for gaining knowledge and understanding the universe.

Basically we have a choice. We can ask for evidence and be right some of the time with the potential to correct ourselves, or we can ask for no evidence and be wrong all the time. Religion and pseudo-science are your alternatives. Enjoy.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  I do believe in some kind of higher power though. How can you not? Life itself is a miracle and if you can't see that then this thread is pointless and won't go anywhere.

I don't believe in a higher power. I am an Atheist. I do not believe there are "miracles".

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  Science supports the loss of consciousness of OUR BODY. This same consciousness doesn't continue... but your ability to be aware of existence will.

Around and around we go. I am still unconvinced because I understand the connection between consciousness and the body. You continue to claim they are independent which is just factually incorrect. If you don't make that connection you are going to continue to make the same logical mistake over and over.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  I just want to know if this makes sense to you or not. So stop asking for evidence. This either makes sense or it doesn't. I don't care if you believe it or not.

This does not make sense to me because it is a flawed piece of reasoning. I don't think it would make any more sense if one hundred people all examined it closely besides me. It's a good thing you don't care who believes you because the grand total of those people is zero.

Come back when have a non-rectum derived theory.

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15-04-2014, 11:40 AM
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
Ooohhh.... Troll.

I don't fear death. I fear eternity. Eternity is a VERY long time. I don't think theists fully understand that. I do not want to endure that.

I don't want death, I just don't want to exist indefinitely.

Also, I reject your idea about a higher power. It reeks of "I dunno, therefore God."
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