Why are Atheists afraid of death?
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15-04-2014, 11:44 AM
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
(15-04-2014 11:40 AM)natachan Wrote:  Ooohhh.... Troll.

I don't fear death. I fear eternity. Eternity is a VERY long time. I don't think theists fully understand that. I do not want to endure that.

I don't want death, I just don't want to exist indefinitely.

Also, I reject your idea about a higher power. It reeks of "I dunno, therefore God."

This. I don't understand how anyone can be comfortable with the idea of eternity.

Seriously used to terrify the crap out of me.

This isn't 100 years, or a million years, or 100 billion years.

This is eternity. You will NEVER STOP being aware. Even assuming this afterlife of yours is some blissful heaven where you can do whatever you want, and not an eternity of worshipping a god (imagine that, an eternity of church services), after 200 trillion years and doing every conceivable thing you can possibly think of doing, there will still be another 200 trillion years for you to be aware.

And then another. And then another. And then another.

That sounds like total shite to me. At that point, how is a heaven any different from a hell?
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15-04-2014, 12:00 PM
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
(15-04-2014 09:38 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  So you're saying that whatever happened before the Big Bang isn't magic? What is the definition of "magic" to you?

To me, the definition of "magic" is simply something that defies our current laws of physics. The origin of energy and matter is a clear violation of these laws. This is a fact.

So...

You are saying that whatever is not currently known can be classified as magic?

And how is this not one big argument from ignorance?

"Well, I can't explain it, so it must be magic".

The people here care about whether our beliefs are actually true. The single best way to do this is to base them on demonstrable evidence, valid and sound logic, and reasoned argument. Without them, all you have is wishful thinking.
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15-04-2014, 01:22 PM
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
(15-04-2014 10:30 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(15-04-2014 10:22 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  "So consciousness continues to exist, but not in anyway that is observable, verifiable or measurable.
In other words magic."

You accuse my assertions to be "magic" and I agree. Of course it is. But existence ITSELF is magical.

Oh gods what a deepity.

You're one small step away from "existence exists" in your pseudoprofundity, you know that?

(15-04-2014 10:22 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  The universe doesn't need a supernatural being for it to be considered magical.

Certainly not to be vacuously asserted as such, no, but an actual coherent and substantive definition would be more useful as a starting point.

(15-04-2014 10:22 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  The fact that anything EXISTS right now is magic in and of itself.

Look, just declaring shit doesn't make it true.

"We don't know how the universe began therefore it's magic therefore magic exists therefore anything can be true for no reason".

Not particularly compelling.

I never claimed anything to be true. If you absolutely need hard evidence to understand anything then don't even respond to my posts. They are not for you.

When I say the universe is magical I'm saying that both supernatural and natural realities coexist... It has to. The infinite and the finite BOTH exist within the physical universe. Everything "natural" as we know it is finite. Everything supernatural lies in the infinite and is impossible to know what it is... But we have to acknowledge its existence. For example, what lies beyond the edge of space? We understand that something must keep going on but we don't know how. Our minds simply can't comprehend it and science will NEVER give us an understanding. If science is INCAPABLE of giving us an understanding to something that exists in the universe, then that something is supernatural.
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15-04-2014, 01:24 PM
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
(15-04-2014 11:15 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  
(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  The introduction isn't irrelevant. It's relevant in explaining my thought process. His response to it was irrelevant and off-topic entirely.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  I mean, if you're religious, the issue of death doesn't nag at you for your entire life because you have an all-convenient reassurance that life continues after death.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Wrong. Religionists worry about going to hell a lot.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  Just an introduction paragraph. Irrelevant to my main point.

Given the above quotes, I think you dismissed Bucky Ball's point without actually answering it. You stated that believing in an afterlife makes one immune to death "nagging at you". Bucky Ball pointed out that the fear of the afterlife could "nag at you" with equal or even superior intensity. How do you account for the fear of the afterlife among the religious?

I am concerned that you decided to ignore his point when he was clearly on topic and making a valid counter argument to a statement you made. Why did you dismiss him as being "off-topic entirely"? I don't know how we can continue to promote a real discussion if anyone who makes an argument that you happen to not appreciate gets dismissed as being off topic, or irrelevant.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  It's hard to explain this... but let's say there's two components to a human being. Let's call the first component his or her "ego", which is everything that makes that person unique. The second component is his or her "consciousness", or simply his capability to be aware of existence. Egos and subjective experiences are different. Consciousness is identical.

I will try to explain why your theory isn't convincing me. You have a very clear definition of "ego" and "consciousness" but I do not think they accurately represent human beings. Simply you stating that they do is not enough. I need actual evidence.

Take for example that no human being can possess an ego without the ability to be conscious in the first place. I do not understand why you think consciousness is not enough to describe the subjective experiences of one human being. With a label that covers the entire experience, there is nothing left to identify.

I am unconvinced that there are two parts to a human being, and I am unconvinced that such a statement means anything at all in practical terms. If I choose the right terms I could divide the human experience into as many parts as I want if it suited my purposes.

This is why thinking and reasoning scientifically is so important, because it demands a high standard of evidence and reasoning that can be recreated among peers to achieve the same results. It is the only reliable means human beings have for determining the difference between opinions and facts. Based on the information you have given me, I would consider your perspective merely an opinion, not an accurate means of understanding what makes up human beings and the nature of consciousness.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  Atheists believe that both are egos and consciousness will die.

Atheists do not engage in faith based "belief". Atheism is not a religion. We accept scientific facts based on a tried and tested method. Even then we are skeptical of everything all the time.

I doubt I am the only one who is unconvinced by your terms, but even if I was, I alone am enough to refute your contention that all atheists accept your definitions. I am unconvinced the the Atheist community views consciousness identically to you.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  I'm arguing that while egos can die, consciousness can't. A physical reality can't exist without there being someone to perceive it.

I think this is where your theory really comes apart at the seams. It is a fact that the human species has not always existed. There were millions of years in which the universe contained not even a single human consciousness. Are you really suggesting that during that time the universe did not actually exist and that it merely sprung into existence as a result of human consciousness? When we die are you really suggesting that it all blinks out of existence since we are no longer available to experience it?

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  It's natural to think that it can, because we see people dying and the universe still spinning without them and we believe that those people are forever unconscious.

This is another problematic point. Bucky Ball pointed out very succinctly how being "forever unconscious" and being dead are not the same thing.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  But it's IMPOSSIBLE to be "forever unconscious" because reality DEPENDS on consciousness for it to exist. Before you argue against this, let me ask you... if you've never been born does the universe even exist? It simply doesn't no matter how you argue against it. This concept applies to death as well, since being dead is exactly the same thing as never having been born.

If I were to have never been born, the universe would still exist. Of course, I wouldn't know that since I would by definition be unable to experience anything. However, that reality logically leads to a conclusion of subjective consciousness that ends at the point of death. The simple fact that when I die my friends and family will not cease to experience the universe is enough to understand that only my subjective experience is changing. Theirs will remain until that time comes for them also.

Being dead is not exactly the same as never having lived at all. The difference is that a life took place. Honestly this is really basic stuff. I am surprised again and again by these obviously untrue statements that are claimed as fact without any evidence to support them.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  So consciousness does exist outside of our physical bodies. In fact, everything in the universe - time, space, and matter, all exist within consciousness, not the other way around. They simply wouldn't exist outside of consciousness. You have to stop thinking scientifically to understand this. Science is unreliable and we all know it can never explain everything in the universe. How can science explain infinity or where the matter from the big bang came from? I mean forget science, our minds can't even COMPREHEND what infinity or a causeless cause is, even though they have to exist in the physical universe.

Leefboy, I am not going to suspend scientific thinking and critical judgement. I can see that you don't appreciate the scientific method, but I do. If your theory had any truth to it, it wouldn't require people to stop asking for evidence. If we can't verify that what you are saying has any truth to it, you are unreliable, not science.

The fact that you expect science to explain everything right now is indicative of how little you understand the scientific method or its significance in modern society. Science isn't a religion. It can't just make things up as it goes along. The whole point is that hard evidence is required for everything so that we can be as certain as possible of what we think we know. Dismissing it as "unreliable" is denying the uncomfortable fact that it isn't the method that is unreliable, its us. Our means of determining how we know what we think we know is flawed and always has been. Science is the antidote by setting up a method to determine facts despite our limitations. In the end, we know a little more every day, but not everything. We also make a lot of mistakes which have to be corrected later. It is an imperfect system, but it is literally the best thing we've got for gaining knowledge and understanding the universe.

Basically we have a choice. We can ask for evidence and be right some of the time with the potential to correct ourselves, or we can ask for no evidence and be wrong all the time. Religion and pseudo-science are your alternatives. Enjoy.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  I do believe in some kind of higher power though. How can you not? Life itself is a miracle and if you can't see that then this thread is pointless and won't go anywhere.

I don't believe in a higher power. I am an Atheist. I do not believe there are "miracles".

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  Science supports the loss of consciousness of OUR BODY. This same consciousness doesn't continue... but your ability to be aware of existence will.

Around and around we go. I am still unconvinced because I understand the connection between consciousness and the body. You continue to claim they are independent which is just factually incorrect. If you don't make that connection you are going to continue to make the same logical mistake over and over.

(15-04-2014 07:14 AM)Leefboy Wrote:  I just want to know if this makes sense to you or not. So stop asking for evidence. This either makes sense or it doesn't. I don't care if you believe it or not.

This does not make sense to me because it is a flawed piece of reasoning. I don't think it would make any more sense if one hundred people all examined it closely besides me. It's a good thing you don't care who believes you because the grand total of those people is zero.

Come back when have a non-rectum derived theory.

"I think this is where your theory really comes apart at the seams. It is a fact that the human species has not always existed. There were millions of years in which the universe contained not even a single human consciousness. Are you really suggesting that during that time the universe did not actually exist and that it merely sprung into existence as a result of human consciousness? When we die are you really suggesting that it all blinks out of existence since we are no longer available to experience it?"

Yes... in a way. Think of it this way. Imagine this universe without conscious beings. Conscious beings never existed and will never exist. What is the universe then exactly? An eternal existence of dead matter that no one even knows about? Why does or should it exist at all? You can argue all day that the universe will still exist even if we never existed by pointing out "scientific" evidence of how consciousness is a direct byproduct of this "dead" matter but in the end that is a logical fallacy. You have to look at all this from YOUR perspective. If YOU were never conscious, there is absolutely no point for a reality to exist to YOU or to anyone else for that matter. The fact that you are conscious right now holds a much deeper significance than you think.

I discredit science as an effective means to observe an OBJECTIVE universe for what it is because science observes the universe through the filter of the human brain. Humans see grass as green, but dogs may see it as red. So objectively, what is grass? If we want to know or observe something truly objectively, we cannot use science or our limited minds. In fact, the only thing we actually know as truth is the fact that our minds exist. So I base my observations on this fact alone. Of course science helps us understand the reality that we see and touch... it is not useless. We should always be striving to learn more through science. But when I'm talking about death and consciousness, I am literally throwing science out the window. It doesn't and will never apply here.

You claim that my reasoning is flawed so I'm going to assume you didn't actually understood what I was trying to say. I'm probably just bad at explaining things. This stuff seems ridiculous and hard to understand... I get it. It requires a whole book to explain it. Try looking up other people's thoughts on the matter of "universal consciousness." You'll probably get a better understanding.
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15-04-2014, 01:40 PM
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
You're throwing out a slew of assertions here, do you have anything to back them up other than "look into it, think about it, man"?

β€œIt is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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15-04-2014, 01:48 PM
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
(15-04-2014 01:24 PM)Leefboy Wrote:  "I think this is where your theory really comes apart at the seams. It is a fact that the human species has not always existed. There were millions of years in which the universe contained not even a single human consciousness. Are you really suggesting that during that time the universe did not actually exist and that it merely sprung into existence as a result of human consciousness? When we die are you really suggesting that it all blinks out of existence since we are no longer available to experience it?"

Yes... in a way. Think of it this way. Imagine this universe without conscious beings. Conscious beings never existed and will never exist. What is the universe then exactly? An eternal existence of dead matter that no one even knows about? Why does or should it exist at all? You can argue all day that the universe will still exist even if we never existed by pointing out "scientific" evidence of how consciousness is a direct byproduct of this "dead" matter but in the end that is a logical fallacy. You have to look at all this from YOUR perspective. If YOU were never conscious, there is absolutely no point for a reality to exist to YOU or to anyone else for that matter. The fact that you are conscious right now holds a much deeper significance than you think.

Reality exists regardless of being observed. There does not have to be a point to it existing. It exists whether you appoint an arbitrary meaning to it or not.

(15-04-2014 01:24 PM)Leefboy Wrote:  I discredit science as an effective means to observe an OBJECTIVE universe for what it is because science observes the universe through the filter of the human brain. Humans see grass as green, but dogs may see it as red. So objectively, what is grass? If we want to know or observe something truly objectively, we cannot use science or our limited minds. In fact, the only thing we actually know as truth is the fact that our minds exist. So I base my observations on this fact alone. Of course science helps us understand the reality that we see and touch... it is not useless. We should always be striving to learn more through science. But when I'm talking about death and consciousness, I am literally throwing science out the window. It doesn't and will never apply here.

Special pleading, again, science is bad when it is interpreted though human minds to learn things, yet when you interpret something through your human brain its right? And when you benefit from science its fine again?

Mike up your mind.

(15-04-2014 01:24 PM)Leefboy Wrote:  You claim that my reasoning is flawed so I'm going to assume you didn't actually understood what I was trying to say. I'm probably just bad at explaining things. This stuff seems ridiculous and hard to understand... I get it. It requires a whole book to explain it. Try looking up other people's thoughts on the matter of "universal consciousness." You'll probably get a better understanding.

No your not bad at explaining, your ideas are built on logical fallacies you put forth as empirical fact.
When challenged to put forth the evidence for this view, you shift the goal posts, shift the burden of proof or plead for special exception.

It seems ridiculous because it is ridiculous.

The requirement of evidence to back your claim does not disappear because it hurts your feelings, reality does not care about your feefees.
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15-04-2014, 02:21 PM
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
Leefboy, your arguments have been little more than a crockpot of shit devoid of logic and reason. They are not scientific, they are NOT philosophical as you have claimed, and they lack common sense. They are little more than the whims of your own speculation. Speculating is fine, philosophers and scientists speculate all the time as a platform for launching into more vigorous inquiries. What they DON'T do is label speculation as fact, theory, or evidence-based arguments.

You fail to grasp that merely asserting something doesn't make it true on its own.

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15-04-2014, 02:21 PM
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
(15-04-2014 01:48 PM)Blackhand293 Wrote:  Mike up your mind.

BRB need an amp.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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15-04-2014, 02:29 PM
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
I did not read all of this thread, but I do not see where athiest would be more or less afraid of death than religious people. Personally I do not see where there is anything to fear on the other side of death, I'm just not ready yet. There is lots left I would like to see. My kids growing up, having families (if they want) some cool places on this planet, etc. We get to ride the rock once so we should make the ride the best we can.
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15-04-2014, 02:30 PM
RE: Why are Atheists afraid of death?
Smokin

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