Why are Jehovah's Witness seen as crazier than other Christian denominations?
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28-07-2012, 06:45 PM
RE: Why are Jehovah's Witness seen as crazier than other Christian denominations?
(28-07-2012 06:25 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(28-07-2012 04:16 PM)Pavlovs_Ape Wrote:  I find it interesting that you would call a lot of those things silliness when they are precisely a lot of the things that mainstream Christianity is taken to task for by a lot of atheists.

-I don't know how many things I've read or watched about trinitarian belief being contradicted by scripture, and the history of the trinity stemming from other religions.

-Nowhere in scripture is Satan said to be anything other than an angel. Almost all ideas of the devil are creations of the early church and have nothing to do with the bible.

-Atheists mock christians for not knowing the origins of the Christmas as a completely non-christian celebration, but you think its silly that JWs do know these things and choose not to celebrate it as it has nothing to do with Jesus?

-Atheism is increasingly reactionary against the power of religion in the political arena, yet its found strange when a group refuses to engage in politics in any way, as they were instructed to do by Jesus.

-Proselytizing is a central tenant of Jesus teachings.

-The rejection of the concept of hell avoids a lot of contradictions found in the majority of christian doctrine. A corporeal hope for the afterlife makes much more sense in light of the origin stories of the bible.

So yeah, they deviate from a lot of mainstream christianity, but not in an illogical or wacky manner.

You asked why, I told you. You seem intent on defending your former beliefs. I recommend you debate these issues with a Christian who gives a fuck.

Dude, unnecessary hostility. I stated earlier that their beliefs are no more defensible than those of any other. They're all based on the unfounded belief that the same ancient text is divinely inspired. I was more getting at the understanding that it's their deviation from standard christian doctrine, not the actual doctrine itself, that makes them seem weirder than others. Your probably right though, I've spent way to much of my life defending the faith than I should have. Old habits and all. Its difficult sometimes to separate ones love for those who believe from the belief itself.

I swear by my pretty floral bonnet I will end you.
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28-07-2012, 06:46 PM
RE: Why are Jehovah's Witness seen as crazier than other Christian denominations?
(28-07-2012 12:10 PM)Pavlovs_Ape Wrote:  I often hear terms like "crazy" and "cult" bandied about when the topic of JWs is brought up, and its always bothered me somewhat. Though I am an atheist now, I was brought up as a Witness, 4th generation in my family. Nearly every member of my family is or was one, and for the most part they are all happy and well adjusted people, as is essentially everyone I know from the church. Even my business partner is one. Two of my parents are university educated. None of them are crazy, or stupid.

I'm just curious as to why they are seen as crazier, more cultish, or more dangerous than other christian denominations. I suppose they are somewhat more xenophobic than others, and the whole blood transfusion thing is reprehensible, but the majority of their doctrine is no weirder than any other, and in some cases makes much more sense.

I'm not trying to defend their doctrines per se, anymore than I would defend the beliefs of any christian. But I cannot see why they are seen as more dangerous than other churches. Their indoctrination is no more severe, and they are generally much more benign.
Hey broski!

I was brought of JW too man.

It's funny. What mainstream christianity (or as the JWs call it, christendom LOL)doesn't realize is that they believe 95% what JWs do. Personified donkeys, snakes, burning bushes.
...The story of Jonah etc.... anyway, we all the bible fulcore part. Jesus is the way truth life blah baah baah.

Anyway, and I don't think a lot of atheist appreciate this. Is that JWs actually got a lot of shit figured out.

They know about christmas and how it's originally pagan. And don't feel comfy associating jesus with pagan or fiction like Santa reindeer etc. So they don't celebrate it. I totally get that.

And they know the Trinity is bullshit. It also has adaptations from prior egypt. They don't get caught up in the confusing nonsense of trying to explain the logic of the trinity. They say god is the father Jehovah and his son Jesus are totally separate deities. Which makes much more sense from the bible, not that the bible makes sense.

Unfortunately, the shunning aspect of the JW is awful.

And so is how they won't take blood. What disturbs me more than anything is....that if a grown adult JW doesn't want blood and dies. Fine, it's his life....But they won't let their children have it. That really sucks. All because of this damn religion thing.

Forget Jesus. Stars died so you could live.-Lawrence Krauss

For god loved the world so much he tortured his only begotten son, gave him a 3 day nap only to wake up in ultimate awesomeness and called it a sacrifice.
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28-07-2012, 06:48 PM
RE: Why are Jehovah's Witness seen as crazier than other Christian denominations?
(28-07-2012 05:20 PM)Pavlovs_Ape Wrote:  I always tell people that there is no call for being rude to them, they're people just like you, and don't deserve abuse for doing what they think is right. Being annoyed is no reason to abuse someone.

... When I say "tell them to shove it"... I guess that's a bit of an exaggeration on my part (to make me look more manly). I just ask them to leave me alone. But telling someone to fuck off with love *anyway* is no crime. You can't call that abuse. Your granny may be a great old lady, but she's got to expect that *totally morally reprehensible* (cough cough) behaviour from some people... and frankly if she did encounter me in one of my darker moods I might just happen to give her the evil eye. But it's not more of an evil eye than I give to any vendor of goods I do not want who ventures into my lair, and not accompanied by swearing. What I'm saying though is if you're gonna go knocking on people's doors you've got to be a bit robust. You can't be all fragile and worried 'cos some guy told you to get lost without explaining first that he understood that it was your belief and part of your morals etc.
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28-07-2012, 06:55 PM
RE: Why are Jehovah's Witness seen as crazier than other Christian denominations?
(28-07-2012 06:45 PM)Pavlovs_Ape Wrote:  
(28-07-2012 06:25 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  You asked why, I told you. You seem intent on defending your former beliefs. I recommend you debate these issues with a Christian who gives a fuck.

Dude, unnecessary hostility. I stated earlier that their beliefs are no more defensible than those of any other. They're all based on the unfounded belief that the same ancient text is divinely inspired. I was more getting at the understanding that it's their deviation from standard christian doctrine, not the actual doctrine itself, that makes them seem weirder than others. Your probably right though, I've spent way to much of my life defending the faith than I should have. Old habits and all. Its difficult sometimes to separate ones love for those who believe from the belief itself.

No hostility here. I just am saying I'm not going to refute your rebuttal because it's all make believe. We might as well have an argument about who would win a race between The Flash and Superman. That is at least more interesting. Smile

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30-07-2012, 03:18 PM
RE: Why are Jehovah's Witness seen as crazier than other Christian denominations?
(28-07-2012 03:43 PM)Pavlovs_Ape Wrote:  
(28-07-2012 03:10 PM)Runicmadhamster Wrote:  Re posted from a earlier thread


The JW are nothing more than a controlling abusive cult, that calls interaction with non JW members and thing for yourself satanic

Again, how is that much different from any a lot of christian denomination? I could take your above quotation and substitute literally any religion in where you say "JW". Calling them an abusive cult goes way too far. I've never heard that interaction with no JWs was "satanic". Yeah, a lot of association with people outside of the church in your spare time is somewhat discouraged. But, I don't know anyone who didn't attend public school, say. I know a bunch of JW business owners, whose interaction with non JWs for business isn't considered wrong. My dad runs large commercial construction jobs, as did his father. They are in charge of literally hundreds of people, zero of which are JWs. And my dad introduced me to rock n roll. I have all his old "satanic" vinyl, fro m The Doors to Zeppelin. The church isn't nearly as restrictive as people seem to believe, in my experience. You may think I had an atypically liberal upbringing in the church, but I don't know anyone who had it any different.

Go watch "Jesus Camp" if you want to see a dangerous and abusive cult. If thats what you think life as a JW is like, you are sorely mistaken.

I never said a lot of what they believe is defensible, I simply wondered what makes them worse in people's eyes than any other religion.

Oh dont worry i never meant to imply that you were trying to defend the JW, i simply was venting.

Now unfortunately the JW are quite controlling, this form the following website http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/Beli...eliefs.htm

Quote:Jehovah’s Witnesses are not allowed to associate with non-Witnesses including family. Exceptions are made if the non-Witness family member is living in the same household.

Its a bit more than somewhat discouraged depending on what country you live in but the general message seems to be dont interact unnecessarily with people not of the JW faith, i will post more later but my internet connection is appalling right now.

You cannot be both sane and well educated and disbelieve in evolution. The evidence is so strong that any sane, educated person has got to believe in evolution.
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31-07-2012, 06:34 PM
RE: Why are Jehovah's Witness seen as crazier than other Christian denominations?
(30-07-2012 03:18 PM)Runicmadhamster Wrote:  
(28-07-2012 03:43 PM)Pavlovs_Ape Wrote:  Again, how is that much different from any a lot of christian denomination? I could take your above quotation and substitute literally any religion in where you say "JW". Calling them an abusive cult goes way too far. I've never heard that interaction with no JWs was "satanic". Yeah, a lot of association with people outside of the church in your spare time is somewhat discouraged. But, I don't know anyone who didn't attend public school, say. I know a bunch of JW business owners, whose interaction with non JWs for business isn't considered wrong. My dad runs large commercial construction jobs, as did his father. They are in charge of literally hundreds of people, zero of which are JWs. And my dad introduced me to rock n roll. I have all his old "satanic" vinyl, fro m The Doors to Zeppelin. The church isn't nearly as restrictive as people seem to believe, in my experience. You may think I had an atypically liberal upbringing in the church, but I don't know anyone who had it any different.

Go watch "Jesus Camp" if you want to see a dangerous and abusive cult. If thats what you think life as a JW is like, you are sorely mistaken.

I never said a lot of what they believe is defensible, I simply wondered what makes them worse in people's eyes than any other religion.

Oh dont worry i never meant to imply that you were trying to defend the JW, i simply was venting.

Now unfortunately the JW are quite controlling, this form the following website http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/Beli...eliefs.htm

Quote:Jehovah’s Witnesses are not allowed to associate with non-Witnesses including family. Exceptions are made if the non-Witness family member is living in the same household.

Its a bit more than somewhat discouraged depending on what country you live in but the general message seems to be dont interact unnecessarily with people not of the JW faith, i will post more later but my internet connection is appalling right now.

Well, I suppose all I can say is the guy that runs that ministry has had his experiences, and I've had mine. 30 years worth. None of them horrible. Everyone I currently know from the church, and nearly everyone I've ever know have been normal, well adjusted members of society.

Jehovah's Witnesses are far from the only religion that discourages members from associating with members outside of the fold, either. And just because a rule is technically on the books, it doesn't mean it is strictly adhered to by the members or harshly enforced by the leaders. .

I swear by my pretty floral bonnet I will end you.
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31-07-2012, 10:49 PM
RE: Why are Jehovah's Witness seen as crazier than other Christian denominations?
I was once a Witness to. Raised in it. I've gotten myself out of there, but still haven't said as much to my blood family about it for reasons I'll get to in a moment.

I have a big problem with Witnesses for various reasons. The biggest of those reasons, though, is how children are treated. It's really hard having to grow up being different from everyone because of what your religion says you have to avoid. Imagine a child having to go through that AND a physical trait that attracts bullying. Now they're living with a double whammy. We all know that Witnesses reject the celebrating of holidays, but they also advise against anything that could be perceived as "spiritism" or political. Witness children are even discouraged from participating in sports. Many of them are told they can't associate with children from their school because they are "worldly" people and are therefore "bad association" no matter how sweet and honest those children may be. Adults fair no better in that respect, but it's much harder for a child to have to deal with this crap.

On the subject of "worldly" people and their "bad association", anyone who doesn't believe in what the Witnesses believe are often mocked. I always hated how they used the word "worldly" in such a derogatory way. Seriously, it makes no difference to them how kind, generous, and honest you may be. If you don't believe what they do, they fully expect you to be destroyed horribly when Tribulation comes around. Which is "any minute now". I know that isn't much different than other Christians throwing the whole "you're going to Hell" thing around, but it's still incredibly arrogant of them. In fact, the way they practice their religion is VERY arrogant. They think they're better than everyone else because they supposedly have the "one true religion". Bullshit!

Witnesses also discourage younger members from getting married, having children, or even getting a college education. They want them to spend their time preaching their "good news" and pushing their publications rather than pursue anything that normal people do to enrich their lives. All because the "end is coming any minute", you know. In fact, when my mother told my aunt (her sister) that I was pregnant, my aunt didn't congratulate me or say something positive. She said, "Why did she purposely do something like that? The end is coming any time now! She'll be sorry she had a baby when it starts!" You cannot imagine the anger I felt in that moment, especially since I've battled infertility for 10 years and this was extremely important and special to me. No words of happiness. Only bullshit about Tribulation again.

Now, here's the part I said I was gonna get to later: Shunning.

My cousin Steven (son of my mother's sister) turned atheist after his father came home one day and ordered him to take his Star Wars figures, his comic book collection, and his fantasy novels out into the back yard and burn them all. He scolded him harshly for not reading the Bible or the Watchtower publications enough and said he was "wasting his valuable time on those demon toys instead of giving it over to Jehovah like he was supposed to". I helped him save as much as I could be sneaking it away with me and giving it back later, but the damage was done. It was that day he turned away from it for good. And he's been shunned by his parents and sister ever since. That's also why I haven't told my mother that I've been an atheist for quite a while. I never said anything and kept playing pretend and going to the meetings and studying because I don't want my family to shun me. My aunt, uncle, and cousin (not Steven) I can deal with not talking to me. I never really talk to them anyway. And I could even deal with my mother not talking to me, but SHE can't deal with her not talking to me. If I told her I'd gone apostate and I'm an atheist, first of all that would break her heart. Secondly, she'd then be stuck fighting herself over what she should do: shun me like the organization tells her she's supposed to and show love to her sky daddy, or keep associating with me and be able to see her one and only grandchild when he gets here in November. That decision would break her mind. She's already mentally unstable. I don't want to tip the scale too much and force her into a breakdown. So I just keep my mouth shut.

I have a lot of other reasons for thinking JW's are crazy, but if I tried to talk about it all, I'd end up writing a novel. Those things are the most important reasons to me, though.
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01-08-2012, 03:00 AM
RE: Why are Jehovah's Witness seen as crazier than other Christian denominations?
(28-07-2012 01:20 PM)Anjele Wrote:  A good friend was JW, married to a JW and he was an abusive ass. And from what she said, dismal as husband in all ways. She had to finally get the courage to leave him...in the process having to leave her daughter too. She went through awful stuff to break from that religion and finally did after a few years was able to get her daughter back after the poor kid suffered due to poor treatment from her father and stepmother and her kids.

She was publicly disfellowed and cut off from family because she was tired of being abused, and tired of being put down for her desire for more education.

Now the daughter is not contacted by the father because she left the faith. And he doesn't think she should bother with college, she doesn't "need" it. Sure, smart girl out of high school nearly a year early...let her answer phones somewhere, or serve fast food...she doesn't need education.

Sorry...if you belong to a group that uses public shaming and separation of family from other family...you are dealing with bunch of nuts that will choose their cult over their own flesh and blood.

And the knocking on my door pisses me off too...what do you suppose would happen if I started going door to door to try to deconvert the religious?

I'll pray for her. ;D

As for the public demonization of the daughter, it is nothing new and uncommon for any religion. It is not exclusive to just Jehovah's Witnesses.

The knocking on the door is definitely annoying, but the Mormon ones are even more mind-numbingly stupid. Specifically the fundamental and quiverfull ones.

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08-12-2012, 11:47 PM
RE: Why are Jehovah's Witness seen as crazier than other Christian denominations?
I used to consider myself a Jehovah's Witness in my early adolescent years. Although I was never baptized, I enjoyed going to the Kingdom Hall. I remember reproaching my mother because I wanted to go and she would always be "busy." I enjoyed being a JW. After "converting" from Catholicism, I felt that JW teachings were much more sophisticated.

Don't celebrate Christmas because it's Pagan. Total sense!
Don't pray to status or images. Genius!
Jesus was the son of God; none of that weird Trinity BS.

Back then it felt much more sophisticated. Of course, now that I don't buy into it, I still have a feeling that they were, in fact, more knowledgeable about the Bible than other Christian denomination. However, they too, like the magic undies and snake handling, have their fair share of crazy. What bothers me know, as a nonbeliever, is that they have their own translation of the "Holy Scriptures" which makes having discussions with them - in contrast to other Christians - a bit more difficult.

Just last week the old lady who comes and lectures my mom found me home alone. She handed me some magazines and asked me if I, too, read them. (A few weeks back she had given me a booklet on how the Bible can help adolescents in school; I courteously accepted it and just shelved it....well....who knows where I left it?) So, since I'm not a fan of lying, I told her that I hadn't read it. When she asked why, I told her the truth, that I didn't believe in god. Somehow I thought she'd say, "Oh okay. I respect that. I'll just come back later when your mom is home." But no. She and the other person she came with tried to convert me.

They rely heavily on a prophesy by Isaiah, who foretold the fall of Babylon. That, according to them, was the definitive proof that the Bible is the authoritative word of god. Of course, I was off guard. The majority of the population in Laredo, TX is Hispanic (myself included), and so the JW's teach in Spanish. However, I can't debate in Spanish, and so I pretty much made a fool out of myself >_< ...This is getting to long. Anyhow, any other former JW know how to "refute" this prophesy? It seemed to me that their entire trusting of the Bible comes from this and other "prophecies."

"If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal." - Carl Sagan
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09-12-2012, 12:02 AM
RE: Why are Jehovah's Witness seen as crazier than other Christian denominations?
(08-12-2012 11:47 PM)Atheist Jesus Wrote:  I used to consider myself a Jehovah's Witness in my early adolescent years. Although I was never baptized, I enjoyed going to the Kingdom Hall. I remember reproaching my mother because I wanted to go and she would always be "busy." I enjoyed being a JW. After "converting" from Catholicism, I felt that JW teachings were much more sophisticated.

Don't celebrate Christmas because it's Pagan. Total sense!
Don't pray to status or images. Genius!
Jesus was the son of God; none of that weird Trinity BS.

Back then it felt much more sophisticated. Of course, now that I don't buy into it, I still have a feeling that they were, in fact, more knowledgeable about the Bible than other Christian denomination. However, they too, like the magic undies and snake handling, have their fair share of crazy. What bothers me know, as a nonbeliever, is that they have their own translation of the "Holy Scriptures" which makes having discussions with them - in contrast to other Christians - a bit more difficult.

Just last week the old lady who comes and lectures my mom found me home alone. She handed me some magazines and asked me if I, too, read them. (A few weeks back she had given me a booklet on how the Bible can help adolescents in school; I courteously accepted it and just shelved it....well....who knows where I left it?) So, since I'm not a fan of lying, I told her that I hadn't read it. When she asked why, I told her the truth, that I didn't believe in god. Somehow I thought she'd say, "Oh okay. I respect that. I'll just come back later when your mom is home." But no. She and the other person she came with tried to convert me.

They rely heavily on a prophesy by Isaiah, who foretold the fall of Babylon. That, according to them, was the definitive proof that the Bible is the authoritative word of god. Of course, I was off guard. The majority of the population in Laredo, TX is Hispanic (myself included), and so the JW's teach in Spanish. However, I can't debate in Spanish, and so I pretty much made a fool out of myself >_< ...This is getting to long. Anyhow, any other former JW know how to "refute" this prophesy? It seemed to me that their entire trusting of the Bible comes from this and other "prophecies."

Ask them if Isaih predicted the EXACT TIME AND DATE when Babylon will fall, if not. It is safe to assume that they left it vague so that it will eventually come to pass. The fall of civilizations are inevitable, but I would really be impressed if Isaiah predicted it with stunning accuracy.

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