Why are liberals such idiots?
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21-08-2013, 03:17 AM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2013 05:53 AM by DeepThought.)
RE: Why are liberals such idiots?
(21-08-2013 12:49 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(30-07-2013 06:53 PM)theword Wrote:  Do liberals have any moral code? Isn't it true that a liberal believes that whatever he/she does, wants to do, or desires is acceptable because "they" approve?

Hey!

Labour looks pretty stupid and amoral right about now too, yaknow! It's not just the Liberals!

You can't compare Australian politics with American politics directly. Our labor party is closer to the American liberals and the American Republican party is closer to our liberal party in terms of political spectrum and policies.

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21-08-2013, 09:07 AM
RE: Why are liberals such idiots?
(21-08-2013 03:17 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  
(21-08-2013 12:49 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  Hey!

Labour looks pretty stupid and amoral right about now too, yaknow! It's not just the Liberals!

You can't compare Australian politics with American politics directly. Our labor party is closer to the American liberals and the American Republican party is closer to our liberal party in terms of political spectrum and policies.

Yabut; fuck it. The joke works on a basic level!

And besides; when dealing with advanced stupid like that; there is no point for me to make a serious pseudo-considered response.


.. Plus both the Liberals and Labour are looking mighty stupid to me right now...

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21-08-2013, 09:12 AM
RE: Why are liberals such idiots?
(21-08-2013 03:17 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  
(21-08-2013 12:49 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  Hey!

Labour looks pretty stupid and amoral right about now too, yaknow! It's not just the Liberals!

You can't compare Australian politics with American politics directly. Our labor party is closer to the American liberals and the American Republican party is closer to our liberal party in terms of political spectrum and policies.

Your Liberals are Conservatives? I know you guys are in the opposite hemisphere, but that's just taking it too far. Angry

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21-08-2013, 09:16 AM
RE: Why are liberals such idiots?
(21-08-2013 09:07 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(21-08-2013 03:17 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  You can't compare Australian politics with American politics directly. Our labor party is closer to the American liberals and the American Republican party is closer to our liberal party in terms of political spectrum and policies.

Yabut; fuck it. The joke works on a basic level!

And besides; when dealing with advanced stupid like that; there is no point for me to make a serious pseudo-considered response.


.. Plus both the Liberals and Labour are looking mighty stupid to me right now...

Do you guys have any viable third parties down there? I'd've thought it more likely, since you have preferential voting.

For the last few years in Canada we've had a triad. In a first-past-the-post geographical-dictricting system. It's so utterly dysfunctional...

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21-08-2013, 09:17 AM (This post was last modified: 21-08-2013 09:26 AM by Free Thought.)
RE: Why are liberals such idiots?
(21-08-2013 09:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-08-2013 03:17 AM)DeepThought Wrote:  You can't compare Australian politics with American politics directly. Our labor party is closer to the American liberals and the American Republican party is closer to our liberal party in terms of political spectrum and policies.

Your Liberals are Conservatives? I know you guys are in the opposite hemisphere, but that's just taking it too far. Angry

It's always been a point of confusion to me when I fear an American talk about Liberals negatively. A thought rushes through my head going "Wait; that's the exact opposite of a Liberal! ... Oh, it's an American talking..."

The people closely associated with the namesake of female canines are suffering from a nondescript form of lunacy.
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21-08-2013, 09:35 AM
RE: Why are liberals such idiots?
(21-08-2013 09:16 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(21-08-2013 09:07 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  Yabut; fuck it. The joke works on a basic level!

And besides; when dealing with advanced stupid like that; there is no point for me to make a serious pseudo-considered response.


.. Plus both the Liberals and Labour are looking mighty stupid to me right now...

Do you guys have any viable third parties down there? I'd've thought it more likely, since you have preferential voting.

For the last few years in Canada we've had a triad. In a first-past-the-post geographical-dictricting system. It's so utterly dysfunctional...

Isn't it called proportional voting? Whatever, it is one of the worst ideas ever.

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21-08-2013, 09:40 AM
RE: Why are liberals such idiots?
(21-08-2013 09:35 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-08-2013 09:16 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Do you guys have any viable third parties down there? I'd've thought it more likely, since you have preferential voting.

For the last few years in Canada we've had a triad. In a first-past-the-post geographical-dictricting system. It's so utterly dysfunctional...

Isn't it called proportional voting? Whatever, it is one of the worst ideas ever.

Hmm? One of the worst ideas ever? Because it's slightly more reflective of people's intention? Anything would be better than what we've got. The problem with instant-runoff is that it requires a modicum of thought.

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21-08-2013, 09:45 AM
RE: Why are liberals such idiots?
(21-08-2013 09:16 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Do you guys have any viable third parties down there? I'd've thought it more likely, since you have preferential voting.
For the last few years in Canada we've had a triad. In a first-past-the-post geographical-dictricting system. It's so utterly dysfunctional...

We have the house of representatives and the senate. The house of representatives has two major parties, Labor and the Liberal/National (LNP). The the LNP is an amalgamation of two right-leaning parties while Labor has stood on its own for some time. Labor faces some challenge from the Greens who sit to Labor's left both socially and economically. The other parties in the house of representatives are all pretty minor players. Some are on the right of the major parties and some on the left.

Even with preferential voting the house of representatives is engineered to be pretty much a fairly stable two-party system. We rely more on the senate to be representative, and to block crazy legislation. It has been very typical in my lifetime to have a minor party sitting between the two major parties in the Senate, effectively wielding control on various issues. When I was younger it was the Democrats. Currently it's the greens. However the last decade has been a bit of a crazy time in Australian politics. The current/last house of representatives was a hung parliament meaning minority control of the house as well as the senate. Before then the LNP had control over both houses following the collapse of the Democrats.

In any case, the way Australian's usually like it is:
* The house of representatives changes hands between the two major parties about once per decade
* The senate has a moderate compromise minority party keeping things in check
The preferential system does make it easier to swap out one of the political parties for a new one if they lean too far left or right, but it doesn't seem to happen all that often. I don't know if we'll get back to a stable political situation any time soon.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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21-08-2013, 12:26 PM
RE: Why are liberals such idiots?
(21-08-2013 09:40 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(21-08-2013 09:35 AM)Chas Wrote:  Isn't it called proportional voting? Whatever, it is one of the worst ideas ever.

Hmm? One of the worst ideas ever? Because it's slightly more reflective of people's intention? Anything would be better than what we've got. The problem with instant-runoff is that it requires a modicum of thought.

It seems it is more important that it be easy to vote people - especially a party - out of office than it is to have a perfect proportional representation. With many factions, nothing much gets done.

There is something not quite right about having a minority party holding the balance of power - the tail wagging the dog.

Think of governing as social experimentation. Group A wants to try policy X, group B wants to try policy Y. It may be the case that some blend of X and Y is good, but not usually. Let's try one or the other. The results should dictate whether A or B retains or assumes power, and we want that to be relatively quickly and we want it to be done peacefully. One thing that the Western democracies have generally succeeded at is the peaceful transition of power.

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21-08-2013, 12:51 PM
RE: Why are liberals such idiots?
(21-08-2013 12:26 PM)Chas Wrote:  It seems it is more important that it be easy to vote people - especially a party - out of office than it is to have a perfect proportional representation. With many factions, nothing much gets done.

There is something not quite right about having a minority party holding the balance of power - the tail wagging the dog.

Think of governing as social experimentation. Group A wants to try policy X, group B wants to try policy Y. It may be the case that some blend of X and Y is good, but not usually. Let's try one or the other. The results should dictate whether A or B retains or assumes power, and we want that to be relatively quickly and we want it to be done peacefully. One thing that the Western democracies have generally succeeded at is the peaceful transition of power.

Sure, but the counterpoint is that a bare plurality shouldn't be given majoritarian control. 35% of the vote is not a carte blanche mandate! Absolute proportional representation is a bit wonky, but at least it avoids people being represented by local candidates who a majority voted against. Too simplistic a system (absolute proportional, winner-take-all districts) will always have big flaws , but then, that's why things like mixed-member exist.

Transitions of power aren't related to electoral systems. In fact, in a coalition government (ie, what is generally necessitated by minority results in a somewhat proportional system) there can be a change of government without an election, if the controlling party acts in such a way that their allies can no longer support them.

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