Why are the real conspiracies ignored?
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04-07-2012, 08:27 AM
Why are the real conspiracies ignored?
Here is what I don't get: there is a ridiculous amount of time and energy wasted on these batshit conspiracy theories but nothing on the real ones. Was the holocaust real? Did George Bush personally plant bombs in the WTC to bring the towers crashing down? Why would the US government shoot an unarmed Osama bin Ladin and doesn't that prove it never really happened? It astounds me how much time is wasted on this crap. Meanwhile, back in reality, actually uncovered conspiracies are not getting any mention.

Two recent examples for you, both from the world of finance:

1. In the past 2 weeks, 3 former GE Capital employees were convicted of rigging the bids for (US) municipal investments. Put into English, what happened was these 3 guys worked with all the large banks the world over to decide, in advance, what rate of return local governments would get when they invested the money they obtained through issuing bonds. The process was supposed to be bids offered in a free market, ensuring that local governments received the highest rate on their money. That is not what happened, though. The banks conspired to decide who would win each bid and keep the interest the municipalities received artificially low. For those of you who live in the US, the burden on state and local budgets has been a big deal and there has been a whole lot of effort to blame public unions for the financial problems of these state and local governments. There is no doubt that these pension schemes are a major contributing factor, but losing billions of dollars to fraud is not helping either. And, so far, 3 middle men have been convicted. The banks that were in on this too? Not one thing has been said about them as of yet. There are, to the best of my knowledge, no plans to prosecute any of the large banks for their complicity in this. This is a major criminal conspiracy and no one is saying "boo" about it. Not in the press, and certainly not here.

2. The LIBOR scandal. This one I can't believe is not getting more play in the US. I know it's big news in Europe but in the US you would almost think it never happened. The basics here are several banks have been caught red-handed in fixing LIBOR rates. LIBOR are the rates that banks borrow from each other. LIBOR determines interest rates on things like mortgages, car loans, student loans, and the rate of return on variable interest securities the world over. At least Barclays has confessed to manipulating LIBOR downwards over a period of several years. UBS and Royal Bank of Scotland are implicated as well, with many more sure to follow. If the big US banks are not implicated when all is said and done, I'll eat my hat. The Wall Street Journal estimates the amount of contracted money impacted by this fraud is US$800,000,000,000,000. That's 800 TRILLION DOLLARS (~636 trillion Euros and ~512 trillion pounds sterling). That is enough money to bring down the economy of Europe, the US, and most of Asia). Barclays got off with a slap on the wrist - $650M in fines and their CEO had to step down in disgrace. Big fucking deal. He should be in prison for the rest of his life. Actually, fuck prison, he should be guillotined.

If you don't think these things impact you, personally, you are wrong. Way, way wrong. They do impact you. They impact the amount of taxes you pay, the amount of services you receive from government, and the sovereignty of government itself. Look at the austerity plans being considered throughout southern Europe right now. You think bank fraud isn't playing a role in the collapse of these economies? It is not completely, but it absolutely is playing a role here.

Here's a great "how does it impact me?" example. Royal Bank of Scotland is 86% owned by UK tax payers. The guys who pulled the LIBOR scam for RBS were paid millions in bonuses. RBS has already stated they are not sure they can legally claw back those bonuses (how you can not recover bonuses that were earned fraudulently is just beyond me but let's assume that is true for the sake of argument). RBS is sure to be hit with massive fines. Seeing as how the bank is owned 86% owned by UK tax payers, can anyone guess who is on the hook for 86% of those future massive fines? That's right, the average UK tax payer! So, a bunch of scumbags commit fraud, get rich, walk away rich, and Mr. and MRs. UK Citizen get stuck with the bill. Again.

And what is the focus on? Batshit crazy conspiracy theories. You know why? Because by letting people focus on bullshit like if man really walked on the moon (newsflash: we did), 9/11 was an inside job (newsflash: it wasn't) or if Elvis was abducted by aliens (jury is out on this one), you completely ignore the real stories that are going on every day that are real and have real impacts and no one wants you to pay attention to. You are all focusing on the hologram of the wizard and ignoring the man behind the curtain.

You need to start paying attention to him, because he is picking your pocket - big time.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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04-07-2012, 09:46 AM
RE: Why are the real conspiracies ignored?
Its because the more ridiculous conspiracies are more interesting.

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04-07-2012, 09:50 AM (This post was last modified: 04-07-2012 09:53 AM by kim.)
RE: Why are the real conspiracies ignored?
(04-07-2012 08:27 AM)BnW Wrote:  Batshit crazy conspiracy theories.

But this forum is the Batshit crazy conspiracy theory forum. If you are looking for alien watching hillbillies, this is the forum for you. If you want to talk about reality, well... that will probably be another forum. Ohmy This is the mouth-breather forum.

************

But I know where you're coming from and I'm with you BnW.

There are a few excellent documentary films out there which touch on the US's early 2008 contribution to the planetary economic takeover downturn. One of my favorites, Inside Job was made early on and can, rather should be used as an outline for who should be strung up rounded up and prosecuted. Of course, it might also show why these people aren't rounded up for their treasonous activity.... so uh, yea.

Another great film, though not a documentary, was released just last year and is "loosely" based on the Lehman Brothers nightmare which started many of the dominoes toppling, Margin Call. I say loosely but... shit, I live in Kansas and I knew what the hell was going on and exactly who the players were. Although the film does not depict any real Wall Street firm, or similar corporate action during the 2008 financial crisis, Goldman Sachs similarly moved early to hedge and reduce its position in mortgage-backed securities, at the urging of two employees, just like in the film.

Other firms like Lehman Brothers and Bear Stearns found themselves similarly and catastrophically over-leveraged in mortgage-backed securities. They scrambled, ultimately unsuccessfully, to manage the financial and public panic that ensued when their problems became apparent and the global financial markets plunged as a result. The character John Tuld is loosely based upon Dick Fuld (gee, how hard was that to figure out?), the former CEO of Lehman Brothers.

Both great films. I get the strangest looks from people when I suggest they watch the films so we might discuss. I get even stranger looks when they report back to me that they tried to watch, but couldn't get in to them or thought there was too much information. The oddest comment I got was... and I'm not kidding here... someone asked me, "Who else knows this stuff?".

Hmm. Undecided

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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04-07-2012, 10:04 AM
RE: Why are the real conspiracies ignored?
I think I remember watching margin call. That CEO was a badass. I know I know, wrong thing to say Tongue But seriously. Made a decision like that without hesitation...
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04-07-2012, 10:11 AM
RE: Why are the real conspiracies ignored?
(04-07-2012 10:04 AM)morondog Wrote:  I think I remember watching margin call. That CEO was a badass. I know I know, wrong thing to say Tongue But seriously. Made a decision like that without hesitation...

Yep - guy didn't bat an eye. He was prepared... gee... almost like he knew it would eventually happen.

And people think it's only God that has a plan. Wink

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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04-07-2012, 10:21 AM
RE: Why are the real conspiracies ignored?
"Margin Call" is based on Goldman, not Lehman. Lehman did not survive, remember. They went down in flames and their assets were sold off for pennies on the dollar to Barclays.

"Inside Job" is a great movie. If you want a better insight into the mortgage bubble fraud, I suggest you read "The Big Short" by Michael Lewis. Fantastic Book. Also, "Griftopia" by Matt Taibbi is worth a read. I should point out in advance that Taibbi is a big nuts. I'm a big fan of his, but he's a little off the deep end. But, anything he backs up with facts you can take to the bank as accurate.

But, this is the point: obviously the batshit conspiracy theories are more interesting but they are not real. The real ones are the ones that are happening every single day without anyone really protesting.

Within the last 2 months, Bank of America was allowed to move all of their mortgage debt from the corporate parent to the commercial bank holding company. That means that these financial ticking time bombs are now being held by an entity that is insured by the US tax payers through the FDIC. So, thanks to the Fed, in its infinite wisdom, if these financial time bombs go off (and it will take probably under 10% failures to take down all of BoA), they will pay off these debts using the deposits of ordinary Americans. Of course, these deposits are all backed by the government via the FDIC so no problem, right?

Wrong. The FDIC does not have nearly the money to cover all the BoA deposits. When all this happened several news outlets were predicting they could cover less than half. So, when a few million ordinary Americans are wiped out because they made the mistake of putting their hard earned cash into an FDIC insured savings account, and the regulator let that money be used as collateral for some of the worst bets made in history, how do you think Congress is going to handle that? I know everyone is against bailouts and resents the idea of "too big to fail". But, does anyone think even the most strident tea party member is going to stand up in Congress and argue "let them eat cake" to all the people who got wiped out when they were doing the right thing? I certainly don't. This is going to end up being another multi-billion dollar bailout of Bank of America. I won't say it is inevitable because my ability to predict the future is not that good, but is has a reasonably high likelihood of occurring sometime in the next 2 years.

Shame that people don't focus on what is real and what is important. I often wonder who starts these crazy conspiracy theories, but I actually think I'm starting to form a theory about it. Of course, that is an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory in and of itself so I won't go there.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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04-07-2012, 11:21 AM
RE: Why are the real conspiracies ignored?
(04-07-2012 10:21 AM)BnW Wrote:  "Margin Call" is based on Goldman, not Lehman. Lehman did not survive, remember. They went down in flames and their assets were sold off for pennies on the dollar to Barclays.


Oh, I was left with the impression that the firm depicted was shredded and everything farmed out. I thought they explained that in the last ten minutes or so. Hmm... been a while since I saw it in the theatre. I'll see if I can find a DVD and examine it closer. Shy

(04-07-2012 10:21 AM)BnW Wrote:  Shame that people don't focus on what is real and what is important. I often wonder who starts these crazy conspiracy theories, but I actually think I'm starting to form a theory about it. Of course, that is an unsubstantiated conspiracy theory in and of itself so I won't go there.

Please, do go there. In your own mind, if no where else.... it will help me feel not so alone with my own theory. Wink

The thing about "conspiracy" theories ... they always just start with things so very close to the "big event" ... they have relatively shallow history behind them. That's a main reason I usually just ignore them; so little substance or relevance.

My personal "theories" usually start with history and questions asked about why questions weren't asked. I consider, if I can ask questions that weren't asked, and it is possible to answer those questions factually.... well, those facts provide substance to my personal theories. I suppose my personal theories can be viewed as speculation, but at least it is speculation which I can back up with actual fact. I usually keep to myself about stuff anyway.

Thanks for the book list! I'll have to check out The Big Short, sounds interesting.
I'd always been an admirer of Bill Black - a level headed guy you might want to check out - knows a bit about banks. The Best Way To Rob A Bank Is To Own One is a good place to start with him.
I think there are some interesting Bill Moyers interviews with him on YouTube.

Honestly, what it seems to amount to is ... people who let the illusion drop are seen as someone who "starts" stuff - "rabble rousers" ... atheists, maybe?. I don't think people care much for people who spill the beans. Shy

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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04-07-2012, 12:31 PM
RE: Why are the real conspiracies ignored?
Best Thread in this section for a while.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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04-07-2012, 02:04 PM
RE: Why are the real conspiracies ignored?
You have some fantastic points, but
please be careful of some of the things that you are dismissing.
Within reason and mainly the 9/11 stuff. All anyone not involved
knows for sure is that some planes crashed, people got scared and
someone claimed responsibility. All I know for sure is that planes
crashed in to two buildings and that someone claimed to have
something to do with it. The reason why I am cautious about the 9/11
bit is that: One, all four of the plane crashes were unusual in some
way. Two, we sent fleets to the Persian gulf area weeks before. I
lived close to a base at the time. Three and most importantly, who
benefited from it? We have Kennedy who was arguably the last real
president America had, why are there still records not being released
to the public about his death and it is purposely combined with the
UFO nonsense. Eisenhower's warning right before it happened. Take his
warning to today and look at the historical evidence of what has
happened and who benefited? The people who benefited from these
events all just happen to be the same people that continue to benefit
from all of this? Our military uses the most oil. Even today with all
the whistle blowers and leaked information, no one pays attention. I
am inclosing something I wrote earlier in another part of the forum
with this because it is relevant.

“For instance we will take politics.
We right now are living in a pretend two party system and I do mean
pretend. The social issues are there to distract the public. It gives
the public something to focus on so no one asks any real questions.
It is all theater for the public and almost all the politicians care
about one thing and one thing only. Money. The real story is that
wall-street likes predictable markets and you get predictable markets
with right wing nonsense. (Also a large percent of right wing tends
to lean towards belief in the supernatural.) When people are scared
they do stupid things and in most cases predictable things. The
markets love this. If you take where things were with pay and cost of
living in the sixties and draw a line to where it is today, minimum
wage should be at around $25.00 an hour and not $7.25. Do the math
looking at top executive pay to what the “average American” makes
the difference will be clear. (Imagine what the world would be like
if are costs stayed about where they are but our income was where it
should be? What do people do when they are not scared anymore? They
question things, they try to make things better in the world around
them.) People don't realize it because they are too caught up with
social issues. As an example look at some of the trick language in
the news. Listen to what they actually say and not what you implied
that they said. “Job Creator” means people that are rich. “Small
Businesses” is a distraction from what would really help the
economy, sorry small businesses don't cut it when it comes to how
much corporations can employ. These are lawyer tricks of language and
if you look at the numbers, most of the politicians have lawyer
backgrounds. Make no mistake we no longer have a government after the
citizens united decision.” -Me

"No matter how old or young everyone is worth it, everyone can learn and no one is beneath you unless they claim to be above you." -Myself
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04-07-2012, 02:24 PM
RE: Why are the real conspiracies ignored?
I don't see it as real or fake. It's proven or unproven. True or false. I won't disregard something out of hand. I won't turn my eye from it do to unpopular vote. However if it has been beaten more times than I can count, and systematically refuted, that is another story altogether.

So far as the examples provided I would assume they are broadly ignored due to the lack of sensationalism that can be attached. There is no big mystery as to why, barely a deeper conspiracy. Greed is the obvious motivator.

Or maybe the people who are interested in the more likely conspiracies aren't as loud and obnoxious as the other brand?

Or the third option... maybe they are being assassinated.

The typical theorist that is witnessed in such places as this are not usually the type to listen to the counter argument, and that is a road block for sure. The only genuine and open theorist I have witnessed come through here that had a sense of reason, is Bemore.

It doesn't help that there is a stigma attached to the term conspiracy theory. You can't even utter a word about a conspiracy without people taking it as though you were asserting that big foot was a weekly diner at your dinner table. As though people have forgotten that it is a genuine thing. There are people who get together and plan stuff without sharing with the rest of the world. Hell in grade six I was myself involved in a conspiracy to eliminate our class teacher from my school. It failed. But that doesn't mean it didn't exist as a conspiracy.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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