Why are the working class so "witless"
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
10-04-2012, 04:51 AM
RE: Why are the working class so "witless"
Dont think im having a go at your Hughsie because im not. TBH I think I am biased and against goverment and I think you may be Biased towards supporting goverment..... However I would like to understand your viewpoint a little bit more.

Firstly you say that Politics is basicly just a popularity contest which is just about good PR. Now I happen to agree with you on that one...... Like Peterkin said about the truth being on the news for all to see but it is painted in a different light and made to appear to come across in a different agenda...... that is the success of the PR mechanism.

So given that do you think that the current system of just winning votes primarily through popularity is actually a good way of doing things??? Where yes I can agree that leaders should pander to the needs of the vast majority.... that is what I would call an example of democracy.... however it would seem that the vast majority of people are only on a limited income, that there isnt as many millionaires as there is "working class" people. I dont see them being represented though.

Secondly there is something else I dont understand. You say that common people may not have the know how nor the correct knowledge to comment on the running of the country...... and that only people with the correct knowledge should be given that right to make decisions...... Can I ask what the point in voting is then??? Because it is quite clear that the vast majority dont have a clue on how the world is run...... so given that how can they actually be in a position to make a judgement on who should do the job??? (is it back to the "who has the best PR" wins the day???)

Also I am shocked at what you say about western nations screwing over countries and that to some degree it should be allowed so that our "competitors" are not allowed into a position to have more of this fabled "money" that the world fawns over. I personally am outraged at how our countrys employ "economic hitmen" to go into countries and bully them for there resources. I for one would gladly give up some of these minor luxuries we afford by this so that other people didnt have to die or suffer because of the wests greed.

I for one dont understand how people dont think to themselves "hold on.... the goverment has to BORROW money and caus a deficit"..... then this obv lead to question on who is more powerfull than the goverment who gives them money and to what agenda or "sanctions" could be put into place so this money will be lent out.

An example I give is Libya (before they got the shit bombed out of them) The system there made it illegal to profit from money creation (the system we have in use over here) and money was lent out interest free...... it was merely used as a system of barter.

Also id like you to consider this hughsie. The goverment has to "borrow" money.... and pay it back with interest. How can they actually pay off this interest when that money is not actually in circulation??? That they are in a continous cycle of having to borrow and create more money to pay off the interest whilst accumulating even more???

Thats why in the past I have said MONEY=DEBT.

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-04-2012, 07:10 AM
RE: Why are the working class so "witless"
The topic title fairly describes why a democracy will fail in the long haul. Democracy is a great idea at the core but ultimately it is open to bias and this makes it an illogical choice.

For a democracy to work you would need a new type of check and balances system. I suggest something like:

1. If you have a problem with something then you will need to provide a logical reason. This reason will need to be unbiased.
(I didn't want to go all technical with this, I just went with a basic statement)

I would go on with more numbers but this would weed out 95% of our problems now if not 100%. This would eventually lead to socialism completely or at least in part. Without this as an option, no matter which government you have it won't work for everyone. Is this going to happen? Nope! Even we as atheists, that supposedly use logic to determine our nonbelief, are completely biased and illogical.

Idiot: : a foolish or stupid person
— idiot adjective
See Republican Candidates.

Keeping realism alive, one honest offensive comment at a time!
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-04-2012, 07:28 AM
RE: Why are the working class so "witless"
(10-04-2012 07:10 AM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  The topic title fairly describes why a democracy will fail in the long haul. Democracy is a great idea at the core but ultimately it is open to bias and this makes it an illogical choice.

For a democracy to work you would need a new type of check and balances system. I suggest something like:

1. If you have a problem with something then you will need to provide a logical reason. This reason will need to be unbiased.
(I didn't want to go all technical with this, I just went with a basic statement)

I would go on with more numbers but this would weed out 95% of our problems now if not 100%. This would eventually lead to socialism completely or at least in part. Without this as an option, no matter which government you have it won't work for everyone. Is this going to happen? Nope! Even we as atheists, that supposedly use logic to determine our nonbelief, are completely biased and illogical.
well, that idea is at the core of every judicial system, but imagine if every problem, every little thing should be logical and unbiased and demonstrated to be so, the first day we would be stuck and everyone would die. And lets not start with what is reason and all that stuff, it would be madness!!

[Image: sigvacachica.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-04-2012, 07:33 AM
RE: Why are the working class so "witless"
(10-04-2012 07:28 AM)nach_in Wrote:  
(10-04-2012 07:10 AM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  The topic title fairly describes why a democracy will fail in the long haul. Democracy is a great idea at the core but ultimately it is open to bias and this makes it an illogical choice.

For a democracy to work you would need a new type of check and balances system. I suggest something like:

1. If you have a problem with something then you will need to provide a logical reason. This reason will need to be unbiased.
(I didn't want to go all technical with this, I just went with a basic statement)

I would go on with more numbers but this would weed out 95% of our problems now if not 100%. This would eventually lead to socialism completely or at least in part. Without this as an option, no matter which government you have it won't work for everyone. Is this going to happen? Nope! Even we as atheists, that supposedly use logic to determine our nonbelief, are completely biased and illogical.
well, that idea is at the core of every judicial system, but imagine if every problem, every little thing should be logical and unbiased and demonstrated to be so, the first day we would be stuck and everyone would die. And lets not start with what is reason and all that stuff, it would be madness!!


Stuck and everyone would die because people can't do this? lol

Idiot: : a foolish or stupid person
— idiot adjective
See Republican Candidates.

Keeping realism alive, one honest offensive comment at a time!
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-04-2012, 08:22 AM
RE: Why are the working class so "witless"
(10-04-2012 07:33 AM)Clint Barnett Wrote:  
(10-04-2012 07:28 AM)nach_in Wrote:  well, that idea is at the core of every judicial system, but imagine if every problem, every little thing should be logical and unbiased and demonstrated to be so, the first day we would be stuck and everyone would die. And lets not start with what is reason and all that stuff, it would be madness!!


Stuck and everyone would die because people can't do this? lol
what's this? debate?

[Image: sigvacachica.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-04-2012, 08:36 AM
RE: Why are the working class so "witless"
If democracy itself is impossible, why can the Finns manage it better than the Canadians who manage it better than the Israelis and everybody who ever tried it does better than the USofA, which claims to be the arch-guardian of all democracy everywhere?
And why does it work for a few decades before it fails?
Might the sophistication of voters not be related to the education and public information services - and who controls them?
Might the selection of office-holders not be a function of campaign financing?
Just idle thoughts.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-04-2012, 04:54 PM
RE: Why are the working class so "witless"
(10-04-2012 04:51 AM)bemore Wrote:  Dont think im having a go at your Hughsie because im not. TBH I think I am biased and against goverment and I think you may be Biased towards supporting goverment..... However I would like to understand your viewpoint a little bit more.

Firstly you say that Politics is basicly just a popularity contest which is just about good PR. Now I happen to agree with you on that one...... Like Peterkin said about the truth being on the news for all to see but it is painted in a different light and made to appear to come across in a different agenda...... that is the success of the PR mechanism.

So given that do you think that the current system of just winning votes primarily through popularity is actually a good way of doing things??? Where yes I can agree that leaders should pander to the needs of the vast majority.... that is what I would call an example of democracy.... however it would seem that the vast majority of people are only on a limited income, that there isnt as many millionaires as there is "working class" people. I dont see them being represented though.

Secondly there is something else I dont understand. You say that common people may not have the know how nor the correct knowledge to comment on the running of the country...... and that only people with the correct knowledge should be given that right to make decisions...... Can I ask what the point in voting is then??? Because it is quite clear that the vast majority dont have a clue on how the world is run...... so given that how can they actually be in a position to make a judgement on who should do the job??? (is it back to the "who has the best PR" wins the day???)

Also I am shocked at what you say about western nations screwing over countries and that to some degree it should be allowed so that our "competitors" are not allowed into a position to have more of this fabled "money" that the world fawns over. I personally am outraged at how our countrys employ "economic hitmen" to go into countries and bully them for there resources. I for one would gladly give up some of these minor luxuries we afford by this so that other people didnt have to die or suffer because of the wests greed.

I for one dont understand how people dont think to themselves "hold on.... the goverment has to BORROW money and caus a deficit"..... then this obv lead to question on who is more powerfull than the goverment who gives them money and to what agenda or "sanctions" could be put into place so this money will be lent out.

An example I give is Libya (before they got the shit bombed out of them) The system there made it illegal to profit from money creation (the system we have in use over here) and money was lent out interest free...... it was merely used as a system of barter.

Also id like you to consider this hughsie. The goverment has to "borrow" money.... and pay it back with interest. How can they actually pay off this interest when that money is not actually in circulation??? That they are in a continous cycle of having to borrow and create more money to pay off the interest whilst accumulating even more???

Thats why in the past I have said MONEY=DEBT.

Don't worry, you'll have to far better than that to offend me Smile.

My view is that I don't think democracy works. It's the best of a bad situation. The only reason we have it is because we have nothing better. Kinda like if you had to choose between being shot in the head or the hand. You'd choose the hand. Doesn't make it a good choice though. If I could think of a way of ensuring a dictatorship remained in the hands of someone who wanted the best for the country, had a sense of morality, and good knowledge on how to run a country, I'd happily switch to a dictatorship in a heartbeat. Unfortunately I cannot think of a way.

I'm not particularly in favour of screwing over smaller nations. The more cynical side of me says it may as well be us until a time that all countries stop doing it. The more moral side is totally against it. I think democracy prevents us from stopping it though because of the way it would be presented in the media and the public's lack of understanding. The sudden loss of income would effect the country, either public services (schools and hospitals?) would decrease or taxes would increase. The two linked subjects would be presented independently. Happy as people were with the moral stance they would vote out the Government for financial mismanagement, the opposition would then discreetly start screwing other people over again, increase public spending and decrease taxes, and enjoy their new-found popularity. The reason a dictatorship would prevent this is because the dictator could take the hit and make himself unpopular knowing full well he'd stay in office anyway.

I don't really know enough about economics to comment on your last point. I remember you posting an excellent thread a while back about economics which had me feeling like I was beginning to understand it, I have now gone and forgotten it all again though. I'll try and dig the thread out and read it again.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-04-2012, 09:12 AM
RE: Why are the working class so "witless"
Democracy relies on the majority of people getting a decent education and that education being a requirement for a voters registration. Unless this happens then people will be stupid and vote stupid, which means democracy must be limited to avoid a total cock up.

[Image: sigone_zps207cf92c.png]

Leonard Nimoy
1931-2015
Live long and prosper.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-04-2012, 07:01 PM (This post was last modified: 13-04-2012 07:04 PM by Antirepublican.)
RE: Why are the working class so "witless"
(09-04-2012 08:00 PM)Hughsie Wrote:  
Peterkin Wrote:Why's that, then? How does the mechanism work? Where did you learn this? Have you observed and can you cite a correlation between, say voter turnout and the incidence of theft? Or between a clean, issue-based election campaign and racial conflict?

Because the average person doesn't seem to think about consequences. If you actually did what people want with no regard for viability the best you could hope for is to bankrupt the country. Besides, the general population seem to change their minds at the drop of the hat, it hardly makes for a stable Government.

Plus, I still don't understand why anyone would wanna put the running of the country in the hands of a bunch of people who the majority of clearly have no idea of how to run a country.

Peterkin Wrote:Wha...? Why the... er... dickens would a moral leader be anti-democratic? Or weak? Or unpopular? Maybe you've just never seen one and think they would be a figment?

Because what is good for the country and what is popular rarely overlap in my experience. If you had a democratically elected leader who did what was moral at the expense of what was popular he'd simply lose the next election.

The only way he would hang around long enough to make a difference would be if he wasn't accountable to elections.

There's also the uncomfortable hit that all Western nations are screwing over smaller countries. If one turns round and opts out of that then not only do they lose a shit-load of money but their market rivals step in and take over the role. The result? The world isn't a better place but your country has far less money whilst your competitors have more.

Peterkin Wrote:Of course it does. If by 'flexible' you mean wholly owned by whoever put up the money for all the publicity that makes him popular. There's no coincidence there; it's a longish cause-and-effect chain.

I don't agree that money is a politicians main motivator. I think it's votes and popularity. And can you blame them? If they don't go for votes then they will be out of the picture altogether.
When you can convince the poor that their misfortune is a result of the other wretched poor, then the gluttonous frivolous misdeeds of the wealthy go unnoticed.
That is what is happening here.

You are a complete delusional gullible twat, and you bought the BS hook line and sinker.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-04-2012, 07:04 PM
RE: Why are the working class so "witless"
(13-04-2012 07:01 PM)Antirepublican Wrote:  You are a complete delusional gullible twat, and you bought the BS hook line and sinker.

OK then. As you clearly know more about everything than the rest of the world, enlighten me.

Oh, and by the way, I've never heard anyone else say this stuff. Bit hard for me to be gullible when these are my own conclusions.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: