Why are there woman vicars in churches when the Bible says the following...
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23-03-2013, 07:41 PM
RE: Why are there woman vicars in churches when the Bible says the following...
Luckily, all signs point towards reason slowly creeping back into people's minds. There's a long way to go, and religion's death rattle will be loud and horrible. But change is never easy, only necessary.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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23-03-2013, 07:45 PM
RE: Why are there woman vicars in churches when the Bible says the following...
I have many religious people in my life and most know my views. I would love to do a reading from the bible at a wedding/funeral/baptism and come up with something really outrageous. It'll never happen but one can always dream.

"Which is more likely: that the whole natural order is suspended, or that a jewish minx should tell a lie?"- David Hume
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23-03-2013, 07:55 PM
RE: Why are there woman vicars in churches when the Bible says the following...
(23-03-2013 07:45 PM)Heathen Wrote:  I have many religious people in my life and most know my views. I would love to do a reading from the bible at a wedding/funeral/baptism and come up with something really outrageous. It'll never happen but one can always dream.

I have very few people in my life who are not religious, and very few of who are religious know my views. The day will come, but I'm too new to atheism to be too vocal about it. Family will have to come first, and that will be the hardest.
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23-03-2013, 08:05 PM
RE: Why are there woman vicars in churches when the Bible says the following...
I can certainly relate to that!

Right now I'm at the stage where family is fully aware that I'm gritting my teeth and rolling my eyes. (Not overtly) I'm not vocal about things unless I can do it in a way that allows them to brush it off as a bit irreverent humour. After 30 years of uncomfortable laughter, they get it. Generally I just ignore it or remove myself, same as I do at work or anywhere else. I'm pretty non-confrontational about most things anyway. But if pushed.......

"Which is more likely: that the whole natural order is suspended, or that a jewish minx should tell a lie?"- David Hume
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23-03-2013, 08:21 PM
RE: Why are there woman vicars in churches when the Bible says the following...
(23-03-2013 08:05 PM)Heathen Wrote:  I can certainly relate to that!

Right now I'm at the stage where family is fully aware that I'm gritting my teeth and rolling my eyes. (Not overtly) I'm not vocal about things unless I can do it in a way that allows them to brush it off as a bit irreverent humour. After 30 years of uncomfortable laughter, they get it. Generally I just ignore it or remove myself, same as I do at work or anywhere else. I'm pretty non-confrontational about most things anyway. But if pushed.......
My problem is that my time undercover is not entirely up to me. My son will soon reach the "indoctrination age" (not sure exactly when that is, since I just made that up), and my parents will undoubtedly be bringing up god at get togethers. It's going to be at this point that I'll have to blow my cover in order to address the fact that he isn't receiving religious training at home. It's also embarrassing (but funny) at meals with them that he doesn't at all understand what prayer is or why he has to be quiet. So I'm kind of dreading this, but at the same time anticipating the freedom it will bring me.

In the meantime, I'm learning all I can to be better prepared to face that day, I just have no way of knowing exactly what the reaction will be. (Dad's a preacher and mom's even more devout than he is)
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24-03-2013, 10:11 AM
RE: Why are there woman vicars in churches when the Bible says the following...
(23-03-2013 06:19 PM)TheLogicalAthiest Wrote:  Corinthians 14:34-35 in the New Testament says:

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Along with all the other verses in the Bible telling us women are second class citizens, this surely shows how silly women vicars are to have read the Bible and not seen an issue with its subjugation of women, and decided they will actively preach this to everyone else, especially when it clearly says women should have no power to preach in church.
This is in the NT so that stops theists giving their usual excuse for rules in the OT like "Oh, God changed his rules", these are in the NT and all the latest rules and there is no reason to think he changed his mind.
Repeat after me:

"What is drawn on a map isn't always what's truly there. The map is not the territory."

"What's written in a person's biography isn't always 100% true, or 100% of what's important. The bio is not the person."

Now add to that a third mantra:

"The holy book is not the religion."

The religion isn't simply some formula of rules found in a text, or even a church's list of requirements to be counted as a member of the religion. (You'll find these pretty frequently -- must believe in the trinity, for example.) The religion is the actual, applied practice and impact among the believers, and that's a pretty messy thing to pin down and critique.

Is there a contradiction? Of course! The book itself is self-contradictory, so there's no way NOT to have a contradiction. The real question is, what to do about it? And if I were to find some branch of Christianity ordaining women ministers, or even heads of their denomination, the thing I would NOT do is say, "Gee, Christianity has a book that's pretty oppressive in places and I don't like that. Hey, those Christians aren't being as oppressive as the book says they should be. HEY! YOU! Quit being hypocrites and actually oppress the people that you aren't oppressing and I don't want you to oppress!" The holy book is not the religion, and in that case, I'm very happy to let the discrepancy stand.

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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24-03-2013, 11:28 AM
RE: Why are there woman vicars in churches when the Bible says the following...
Because they slowly realize st Paul was crazy.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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24-03-2013, 11:39 AM
RE: Why are there woman vicars in churches when the Bible says the following...
Women really get the biblical shaft...


Woment getting shafted

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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24-03-2013, 01:42 PM
RE: Why are there woman vicars in churches when the Bible says the following...
(23-03-2013 08:21 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(23-03-2013 08:05 PM)Heathen Wrote:  I can certainly relate to that!

Right now I'm at the stage where family is fully aware that I'm gritting my teeth and rolling my eyes. (Not overtly) I'm not vocal about things unless I can do it in a way that allows them to brush it off as a bit irreverent humour. After 30 years of uncomfortable laughter, they get it. Generally I just ignore it or remove myself, same as I do at work or anywhere else. I'm pretty non-confrontational about most things anyway. But if pushed.......
My problem is that my time undercover is not entirely up to me. My son will soon reach the "indoctrination age" (not sure exactly when that is, since I just made that up), and my parents will undoubtedly be bringing up god at get togethers. It's going to be at this point that I'll have to blow my cover in order to address the fact that he isn't receiving religious training at home. It's also embarrassing (but funny) at meals with them that he doesn't at all understand what prayer is or why he has to be quiet. So I'm kind of dreading this, but at the same time anticipating the freedom it will bring me.

In the meantime, I'm learning all I can to be better prepared to face that day, I just have no way of knowing exactly what the reaction will be. (Dad's a preacher and mom's even more devout than he is)
You are in a very difficult situation and I certainly have empathy for you. I wish I had some advice for you but I'm probably not the best model for handling this. There are some around here than can give you good advice though. Best of luck!

"Which is more likely: that the whole natural order is suspended, or that a jewish minx should tell a lie?"- David Hume
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24-03-2013, 01:51 PM
RE: Why are there woman vicars in churches when the Bible says the following...
Oh ffs, I don't see what all the fuss is about; my Dad loved the Vicar of Dibley. Shy




A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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