Why are we allies with Israel again?

[GassyKitten]

(29-05-2011 06:23 PM)Celestus87 Wrote:  

Oh why can't Santa put that under my tree tonight? I'll even leave hay for the reindeer.

Have you ever noticed that when someone calls Israel's ideology into question the defense that first rings to the rafters against that critic(s) is, "Antisemitic!" ?

It reminds me of that old adage;the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to make the world believe he doesn't exist. Only with regards to Jews, or Israel and her politics, the adage, the keyword that draws the curtain over sincere review and criticism of Jews or Israeli politics is to accuse those who voice concern for same, of antisemitism. Then they are the target of critics, because it's implied and thus later inferred, that critic must hate Jews.

Regarding BC's observations in the OP, as to Israel being upset with the U.S. because we're looking to install the democratic model around the world, including in Muslim countries, if that is the case someone needs to seriously look at Israel.

When the U.S. has sent troops into foreign countries, under the auspices of freeing the oppressed, all the while with her allies at her back that would include Israel, so as to install that same model of government and yes, for our own exploitation of course, but then again name a country that doesn't exploit for it's own benefit resources where it can find them, then Israel needs to be called on the carpet for thinking Democracy is something that should be curtailed when it comes to bringing the peace Israel says it sorely wants when she's being oppressed and attacked by her enemies.

"ANTISEMITIC!"

[gaglamesh731]

(30-05-2011 04:47 PM)Celestus87 Wrote:  

(30-05-2011 04:37 PM)BnW Wrote:  You know you've really fucked things up when people are siding with terrorists over you.

And who is the terrorist in this story? The Palestinians that have their schools and hospitals booby-trapped and exploded or the Israelis who cry bloody murder and tug America's sleeve when they need more "hugs".

That's just crap.
Extremists kill Israelis on purpose. That a lot of the skirmishes by the Israeli government are crap and result in unnecessary civilian casualty - no doubt , but to compare deliberate murder of civillians and hiding behind civilians as human shields to carry out terrorists attacks doesn't compare by far to the worst possible collateral casualties.

Oh , BnW - glad you pointed out Arafat's hypocrisy.

---

Quote:Have you ever noticed that when someone calls Israel's ideology into question the defense that first rings to the rafters against that critic(s) is, "Antisemitic!"

Oh come on , you don't honestly think that. Yes the Israeli government has a horrid propaganda machine especially on the far right but that doesn't mean there aren't decent and progressive Israelis who are decent people who don't want conflict. Haven't you heard similar propaganda , that if you aren't a Christian you aren't a true American and you are a traitor. I've heard the same kind of slur. It doesn't surprise me one bit. There are assholes everywhere , Israel included , but that doesn't make the whole country asshole-topia.

[Celestus87]

(30-05-2011 05:47 PM)gaglamesh731 Wrote:  

(30-05-2011 04:47 PM)Celestus87 Wrote:  

(30-05-2011 04:37 PM)BnW Wrote:  You know you've really fucked things up when people are siding with terrorists over you.

And who is the terrorist in this story? The Palestinians that have their schools and hospitals booby-trapped and exploded or the Israelis who cry bloody murder and tug America's sleeve when they need more "hugs".

That's just crap.
Extremists kill Israelis on purpose. That a lot of the skirmishes by the Israeli government are crap and result in unnecessary civilian casualty - no doubt , but to compare deliberate murder of civillians and hiding behind civilians as human shields to carry out terrorists attacks doesn't compare by far to the worst possible collateral casualties.

Oh , BnW - glad you pointed out Arafat's hypocrisy.

This reminds me of the Greek-Turk war. The greeks say the turks are monsters. The turks say we are the monsters. The truth is that we have both committed some serious atrocities against each other.

Guess who's to blame?
Yeah, religion.

[Buddy Christ]

This is the reason I have stayed out of the Israel-Palestine conflict discussions. There is zero middle ground on this.

I run into protesters of both sides on campus and whoever you ask, the other side is the bloodthirsty terrorists and their side is just poor innocent victims who haven't done anything wrong. Sites like these claim the Israels are committing genocide against the poor Palestinians. While on the flip side, sites like these list all the victims of those "terrorist Palestinians."

All of this bloodshed is the result of a game of "tug of war" with the city of Jerusalem, correct? Seems like a waste for a piece of land in a fairy tale.

If Jesus mentioned "stopping to take a dump" at the city of Nowheresville, Egypt, I bet people would be killing each other to claim the land there.

[gaglamesh731]

(30-05-2011 05:52 PM)Celestus87 Wrote:  

(30-05-2011 05:47 PM)gaglamesh731 Wrote:  

(30-05-2011 04:47 PM)Celestus87 Wrote:  

(30-05-2011 04:37 PM)BnW Wrote:  You know you've really fucked things up when people are siding with terrorists over you.

And who is the terrorist in this story? The Palestinians that have their schools and hospitals booby-trapped and exploded or the Israelis who cry bloody murder and tug America's sleeve when they need more "hugs".

That's just crap.
Extremists kill Israelis on purpose. That a lot of the skirmishes by the Israeli government are crap and result in unnecessary civilian casualty - no doubt , but to compare deliberate murder of civillians and hiding behind civilians as human shields to carry out terrorists attacks doesn't compare by far to the worst possible collateral casualties.

Oh , BnW - glad you pointed out Arafat's hypocrisy.

This reminds me of the Greek-Turk war. The greeks say the turks are monsters. The turks say we are the monsters. The truth is that we have both committed some serious atrocities against each other.

Guess who's to blame?
Yeah, religion.

I don't deny both sides committed atrocities but I'm siding with Israel because they're a democracy that has a large number of progressive thinkers who want to kick religion in the ass and get it off the table and even go back to 1967 if necessary to ensure peaceful coexistence. Also ,
Let's be honest here :
Israel got attaceked on the 2nd day it formed
It's the only democracy in the area
It supports LGBT rights
It does allow secular perspectives on judicial hearings

Here's a vid that encompasses what I was referring to :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7aug0tN4WE

It's one thing to cause collateral damage , but to intentionally kill civilians - that's just crap. There were Jewish terrorists , when arrested they were executed for their crimes by the Israeli government, yet when some fanatics decide to blow up a building or car , some theocratic governments and religious fanatics praise them - there's the issue. In all honesty , I choose the lesser evil.

[Celestus87]

But the Israelis have attacked both schools and hospitals. Why is this any less horrific? Because they are embracing the idealism of the west. If anything, this conveys a certain degree of hypocrisy.

I dunno. Perhaps I do not have all the facts. Perhaps I'm wrong; perhaps we are all wrong for trying to find good in two inherently opposite horrible sides.

This whole debate seems like Bella's inner monologues... "Should I engage in necrophilia or beastiality? Hmmm..."

[Lilith Pride]

(29-05-2011 08:07 PM)Cube Wrote:  Now eat your veggies little Timmy or Lilith will co- oh wait, wrong religion.

Which religion were you going for? Judaism and christianity have a very similar view of Lilith. Lilith may have been excised from the christian bible, but the legends continued despite her not being mentioned.

And I'll be by to get you soon enough Cube =p

Not that it really matters as I see Lilith as one of the times the jews borrowed a well known deity and made it look bad.

[GassyKitten]

(30-05-2011 05:47 PM)gaglamesh731 Wrote:  

(30-05-2011 04:47 PM)Celestus87 Wrote:  

(30-05-2011 04:37 PM)BnW Wrote:  You know you've really fucked things up when people are siding with terrorists over you.

And who is the terrorist in this story? The Palestinians that have their schools and hospitals booby-trapped and exploded or the Israelis who cry bloody murder and tug America's sleeve when they need more "hugs".

That's just crap.
Extremists kill Israelis on purpose. That a lot of the skirmishes by the Israeli government are crap and result in unnecessary civilian casualty - no doubt , but to compare deliberate murder of civillians and hiding behind civilians as human shields to carry out terrorists attacks doesn't compare by far to the worst possible collateral casualties.

Oh , BnW - glad you pointed out Arafat's hypocrisy.

---

Quote:Have you ever noticed that when someone calls Israel's ideology into question the defense that first rings to the rafters against that critic(s) is, "Antisemitic!"

Oh come on , you don't honestly think that. Yes the Israeli government has a horrid propaganda machine especially on the far right but that doesn't mean there aren't decent and progressive Israelis who are decent people who don't want conflict. Haven't you heard similar propaganda , that if you aren't a Christian you aren't a true American and you are a traitor. I've heard the same kind of slur. It doesn't surprise me one bit. There are assholes everywhere , Israel included , but that doesn't make the whole country asshole-topia.

Firstly, I am not the one relating anything even close to the whole country (of Israel) being asshole-topia. So if you've got that idea, you alone own it.

Secondly, you are quite correct. I don't think that. I've encountered it, in forums when we're discussing Politics in Israel. Without fail, it's either been said as a direct attempt at insulting me, which fails miserably. Or, it's implied as a backhand as in; "some" people are just Antisemitic.

And just an aside, for your edification, "Propaganda" , doesn't apply when one is relating personal experience. However, your attempt to derail the matter to the dismissive, in calling what many know to be true;propaganda, is exactly what I was talking about. And for that, I thank you for making my point quite clear.

[Cube]

(30-05-2011 08:22 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Which religion were you going for? Judaism and christianity have a very similar view of Lilith. Lilith may have been excised from the christian bible, but the legends continued despite her not being mentioned.

And I'll be by to get you soon enough Cube =p

Not that it really matters as I see Lilith as one of the times the jews borrowed a well known deity and made it look bad.

Oh no. I was talking about you

Judaism though. The Christians I know don't even know who she is.

[gaglamesh731]

@Gassy
First of all how the hell do you get anything antisemitic from that ? Did I accuse you of that ? The only thing I accused you of was judging Israel as a whole rather than the sum of entities that it is. I don't think anyone is antisemitic for criticizing Israel's policies. I think they border on it when they accuse an entire country for being a malevolent single minded entity based on nothing but oppression (not your case).

How the hell do you get derraling the matter to the dismissive from that ? Seriously ? I was making it clear that there are groups that uses slur both pro and against Israel. "Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position so as to benefit oneself."
Doesn't seem to say anything about personal experience ? Can't a story be twisted ? Is an observer truly objective ?