Why are we allies with Israel again?
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31-05-2011, 11:40 AM
RE: Why are we allies with Israel again?
(30-05-2011 04:47 PM)Celestus87 Wrote:  
(30-05-2011 04:37 PM)BnW Wrote:  You know you've really fucked things up when people are siding with terrorists over you.

And who is the terrorist in this story? The Palestinians that have their schools and hospitals booby-trapped and exploded or the Israelis who cry bloody murder and tug America's sleeve when they need more "hugs". Dodgy

I agree. Both sides use "terrorist" tactics. They'll always hate each other, we might as well be throwing bologna at a tank by intervening. It's useless.
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31-05-2011, 12:26 PM
RE: Why are we allies with Israel again?
(31-05-2011 11:40 AM)bird Wrote:  we might as well be throwing bologna at a tank by intervening. It's useless.

You know... I threw bologna at a tank once.

It was delicious.

"Ain't got no last words to say, yellow streak right up my spine. The gun in my mouth was real and the taste blew my mind."

"We see you cry. We turn your head. Then we slap your face. We see you try. We see you fail. Some things never change."
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31-05-2011, 06:45 PM
RE: Why are we allies with Israel again?
(31-05-2011 11:34 AM)gaglamesh731 Wrote:  @Gassy
First of all how the hell do you get anything antisemitic from that ? Did I accuse you of that ? The only thing I accused you of was judging Israel as a whole rather than the sum of entities that it is. I don't think anyone is antisemitic for criticizing Israel's policies. I think they border on it when they accuse an entire country for being a malevolent single minded entity based on nothing but oppression (not your case).

How the hell do you get derraling the matter to the dismissive from that ? Seriously ? I was making it clear that there are groups that uses slur both pro and against Israel. "Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position so as to benefit oneself."
Doesn't seem to say anything about personal experience ? Can't a story be twisted ? Is an observer truly objective ?
I didn't say you called me antisemitic. I said you made my point quite clear as to how any criticism of Israel or Jews is dismissed, (and very often the critic is labeled antisemitic). You dismissed my observations with the charge of propaganda like unto that which is afforded Christians, etc...

It's not propaganda when the message is out there that Israel and the Jews are above reproach. Implied or inferred, it's the same thing. Obama has even come under fire for his speech making, as we know, when he talks about how the lines separating Israel and Palestine should be pushed back to those borders that were present in the early 20th century.
I watched his speech just last week on CSpan before an Israel Rights Advocacy group, who's acronym now escapes me, wherein he addressed his former comments and backed them up with reason.
Before that, media and critics were amazed. What's Israel going to say? How can he say that? What's it all mean? Is he siding with Palestine? Shall there be a rift now between these two long time allied nations? (USA & Israel)

Truth be told, the wall in Israel now is a blatant land grab. It's reprehensible to think a nation that claims to want peace thinks walls can accomplish that. To witness Jewish children on PBS Documentaries accompanying the journalists past IDF target ranges say of the flying bullets, in the event one happens to miss it's paper target, well maybe it'll fly stray and kill a Palestinian! Lends the example contrary to what is often thought, that Israel does not hate Arabs or Palestinians.

I've talked to people who claim that very thing. I've witnessed conversations wherein the person claiming Israeli's do not teach their children to hate Arabs or Palestinians, grow heated, throw out the antisemitic word toward myself and another commentator who sided with me that that is simply not true. Only my fellow was a teacher here in the States on vacation, in Israel public schools! Our critic however, was unaware of that. As they were also unaware that he was Jewish.

The dismissal of full on honest criticism of Israel and Jews is not going to solve the conflict in the middle east or anywhere else on earth. Of course not all of Israel is asshole central. No place is asshole central with an exclusive 100% population of assholes. However, to side step the fact that we're talking about Israel here, in saying criticism of their politics will inevitably lead to a resounding indictment of the critic as being antisemitic, and that label in and of itself is for the most part highly effective in discrediting anything else the critic may say on the matter, is not propaganda.
Nor is that word something that can then dismiss the very real fact it happens with great frequency. As we see in the media as well as personally, across the span of fields of discussion. Be it politics, entertainment or religion. Anything critical of Israel or Jews holds potential not to be looked at fairly without it inevitably being relegated to something unworthy of respect because in some way it must represent a hatred of Israel and Jews.

And when you dismissed my observation in that regard claiming it's just propaganda that happens elsewhere and isn't indicative of the whole of Israel, not only did you miss the point of what I was saying, but you also made my point by claiming what amounts to, saying criticism is usually met with the charge of antisemitism is propaganda like that what is found anywhere else in ... Thereby dismissing the matter as all that Propaganda itself implies by definition.

And just to be clear on that.

/ˌprɒpəˈgændə/ Show Spelled[prop-uh-gan-duh] Show IPA
information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.
the deliberate spreading of such information, rumors, etc.
the particular doctrines or principles propagated by an organization or movement.
(30-05-2011 07:52 AM)Celestus87 Wrote:  
(29-05-2011 08:14 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(29-05-2011 06:23 PM)Celestus87 Wrote:  [Image: gold.jpg]

I'm pretty sure that is not it. Israel takes a lot of money from the US and offers little in return. In contrast, many of their enemies are oil producing countries who would probably happily reward the US if we stopped providing Israel arms and then turned a blind eye while they worked to eradicate Israel off the map. So, this is not a money issue. If it was, it would have gone the other way.

Maybe, its not a direct money-in-your-pocket thing. By supporting the bloodlust of Israel, US is able to make a fortune on selling arms to Europe and Northern Africa.

It's not a coincidence that the US has such a shitload of bases and camps in the Mediterranean area.

Quote:" Every faction in Africa calls themselves by these noble names - Liberation this, Patriotic that, Democratic Republic of something-or-other... I guess they can't own up to what they usually are: the Federation of Worse Oppressors Than the Last Bunch of Oppressors. Often, the most barbaric atrocities occur when both combatants proclaim themselves Freedom Fighters. " Yuri Orlov (Lord of War)

Have you ever watched the Nicolas Cage movie, "Lord of War" ?
Or that of George Clooney, "Syriana" ? Hollywood movies true enough, but very insightful in how that game is played.

" We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us." Golda Meir
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31-05-2011, 07:51 PM
RE: Why are we allies with Israel again?
(31-05-2011 01:17 AM)Cube Wrote:  
(30-05-2011 08:22 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Which religion were you going for? Judaism and christianity have a very similar view of Lilith. Lilith may have been excised from the christian bible, but the legends continued despite her not being mentioned.

And I'll be by to get you soon enough Cube =p

Not that it really matters as I see Lilith as one of the times the jews borrowed a well known deity and made it look bad.
Oh no. I was talking about you Tongue
Judaism though. The Christians I know don't even know who she is.

Christians still have legends of Lilith. She is often realized as a demon among younger people of the US and the stories exist within Mexico, and many areas of Africa. Lilith is actually mentioned within the Apocrypha which in some areas is not an unread book as well.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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01-06-2011, 12:01 AM
RE: Why are we allies with Israel again?
(31-05-2011 06:45 PM)GassyKitten Wrote:  Have you ever watched the Nicolas Cage movie, "Lord of War" ?
Or that of George Clooney, "Syriana" ? Hollywood movies true enough, but very insightful in how that game is played.

I'll get to it soon enough. I hope it's not conspiratorial crap like Salt. I'm always skeptical when seeing a US movie about the USSR. Dodgy

PS. I actually liked Salt... Sleepy
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01-06-2011, 04:46 AM (This post was last modified: 01-06-2011 04:52 AM by gaglamesh731.)
RE: Why are we allies with Israel again?
I don't want to give the impression I see this as a black and white issue. I hate those that support Hamas and Hezbollah but I also hate far-right and religious fanatics in Israel who would sooner kill their infants than make peace with their neighbors.
The media indeed tends to polarize the issue and I agree the Christian right in the US is just fueling and already dangerous religious fire.

The propaganda thing was to clarify that even what one person states (in their own opinion) can be propaganda (again theoretical , not your case)

I agree with criticizing Israel but I'd like to see things go like this :
"I disagree with Israel's policy. I don't like the actions of the current dominating party Likud for their nationalist overtone and dismissal of a peace process with Palestinians.
I'd like to see the Labor Party of Israel re-elected because they provide a more feasible solution to the problem."

Criticize Israel , by all means , but be specific , don't judge it as an amorphous mass. It isn't fair but is BY NO MEANS antisemitic.

Hypocrisy in Israel :

Hypocrisy by Palestinians :

Atheism is a religion like OFF is a TV channel !!!

Proud of my genetic relatives Big Grin
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