Why are we obsessed with feminism again?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
28-08-2017, 05:27 PM
RE: Why are we obsessed with feminism again?
(28-08-2017 02:38 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 02:23 PM)Emma Wrote:  I never had any experience even remotely similar as a man.

Yeah, it was news to me when I first heard of this behaviour. I've never been aware of it as a man. Lady friends have confirmed to me that harassment happens to them all the time. Still shocking every time I think about it.

It's shocking to us who do not act this way. We can acknowledge the need for vigilance in defending women's rights and basic decency while at the same time not treating all young men as presumed rapists. Raising awareness of this as an issue is a good thing. But the language used by some feminists--particularly on campus--treats all men as perpetrators. And in those cases, some feminists take things too far and create the potential for backlash.

Read this for its provocative gender reversal of the type of opinion piece one might read advocating women's' rights:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2...102015432/

"Rape culture", "teach men not to rape", "toxic masculinity"--these are slogans which cast all men as out of control and rape obsessed. And the author has a fair point about "rape gendering", where rape is defined as a male crime perpetrated on a female victim when studies done find 7% of men reported they were "made to penetrate". However that does not meet the CDC's definition of rape, so none of those who reported this would be considered in the statistics on sexual assault. ( see https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2.../16007089/ ).

For an example of how one sided this debate has become, a recent controversial case in the news saw a male expelled from school after a female performed oral sex on the male who was too drunk to consent. The female texted her plan before performing the act, and then bragged about it via text afterward. When the school determined he was guilty of sexual assault, they acknowledged that he was too drunk--having passed out--to agree or consent to oral sex. However he was determined by the school to have sexually assaulted the female and expelled. Even after the text messages were discovered, the school refused to reconsider its determination. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/...2810ea1929 )
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-08-2017, 05:30 PM
RE: Why are we obsessed with feminism again?
#notallmen

Facepalm

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Vera's post
28-08-2017, 05:39 PM
RE: Why are we obsessed with feminism again?
Sure, "all men aren't like that." But many are. Enough are. In fact, so many men are "like that" that pretty much every woman has experience with that kind of man by the time she's a teenager. We've been groped, grabbed, followed, yelled at, and called horrible names. We've been propositioned and whistled at and had our physical appearance commented on while we were just moving through the day trying to lead normal human lives. We've had boners rubbed on us in public spaces and been told incessantly to "smile." And we've been told, most of the times we spoke up about any of these things, that we should change our behavior to avoid them — that if anything bad should happen to us, just maybe it's because of the precautions we didn't take.

And so, because there usually doesn't seem to be another way to handle it, we do change our behavior. We grow more cautious, we avoid being alone with strange men, we walk faster and carry mace and try to always be on guard. And then you, the "good guys," come along asking us why we assume the worst? The answer is because we have to. Because if we don't (even if we do, really) we'll be blamed for whatever happens to us. Because we learned a long time ago that we can't count on others, especially not other men, to have our backs when men behave badly toward us. We learned that nobody is going to help us but ourselves.

If you want women to not assume that men are "like that," try turning your attention to those men, not the women who have learned tactics to avoid them

"If you don't have a seat at the table, you're probably on the menu."

[Image: parodia-michal-aniol-flying-spaghetti-monster.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 10 users Like ShadowProject's post
29-08-2017, 12:52 AM
RE: Why are we obsessed with feminism again?
(28-08-2017 05:27 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 02:38 PM)morondog Wrote:  Yeah, it was news to me when I first heard of this behaviour. I've never been aware of it as a man. Lady friends have confirmed to me that harassment happens to them all the time. Still shocking every time I think about it.

It's shocking to us who do not act this way. We can acknowledge the need for vigilance in defending women's rights and basic decency while at the same time not treating all young men as presumed rapists. Raising awareness of this as an issue is a good thing. But the language used by some feminists--particularly on campus--treats all men as perpetrators. And in those cases, some feminists take things too far and create the potential for backlash.

Read this for its provocative gender reversal of the type of opinion piece one might read advocating women's' rights:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2...102015432/

"Rape culture", "teach men not to rape", "toxic masculinity"--these are slogans which cast all men as out of control and rape obsessed. And the author has a fair point about "rape gendering", where rape is defined as a male crime perpetrated on a female victim when studies done find 7% of men reported they were "made to penetrate". However that does not meet the CDC's definition of rape, so none of those who reported this would be considered in the statistics on sexual assault. ( see https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2.../16007089/ ).

For an example of how one sided this debate has become, a recent controversial case in the news saw a male expelled from school after a female performed oral sex on the male who was too drunk to consent. The female texted her plan before performing the act, and then bragged about it via text afterward. When the school determined he was guilty of sexual assault, they acknowledged that he was too drunk--having passed out--to agree or consent to oral sex. However he was determined by the school to have sexually assaulted the female and expelled. Even after the text messages were discovered, the school refused to reconsider its determination. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/...2810ea1929 )

OK so let's talk. First you've cited a singular case. Can you tell me, apart from this anecdote, do you have evidence of a systemic problem? As in, are males routinely treated in the way that this student was treated. Because I can assure you, women are routinely treated in a very bad way in the identical circumstance. And the fact that men are treated badly in no way excuses the bad treatment of women.

Secondly, you object to terms such as rape culture. Well, there's a debate to be had here, because there actually *is* a culture of excusing rape, of demonising the victim and so forth, almost globally. It's so pervasive that people aren't even aware of it. For example when a person gets raped and it turns out that they were drunk and walked down a dark alleyway wearing a miniskirt. The reflex rape culture response is "Well, what did she expect?" It doesn't meant that the person who says that response is a rapist, but it is an example of the kind of attitudes that lead to a culture where rape is regarded as... you know... just a little crime.

Men get lighter sentences, victims get cast as "sluts" - IIRC famously there was a case where a judge caused an underage girl to commit suicide a few years ago, by somehow determining in his legal mind, that she was the one who "enticed" the so-innocent rapist. There's the famous case of Brock Turner, who got six months on the basis that he was a promising athlete.

While I have also cited anecdotes, bear in mind that these anecdotes are *plentiful*. There are statistics. Studies have claimed that as many as one in five women are sexually assaulted on college campuses in America. Is that not "rape culture"? Terms such as rape culture, toxic masculinity etc actually have academic definitions - this stuff has been studied. Just objecting to it based on feelings is pointless.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like morondog's post
29-08-2017, 04:49 AM
RE: Why are we obsessed with feminism again?
(28-08-2017 05:27 PM)BryanS Wrote:  "Rape culture", "teach men not to rape", "toxic masculinity"--these are slogans which cast all men as out of control and rape obsessed.

Say what?

That's so fucking stupid, I'm at a loss for words.

'Toxic Masculinity' does NOT paint all men as uncontrollable sex fiends and rapists.

Have you seen the movie Fight Club? Tyler Durden (Brad Pitt's character) is the poster child of Toxic Masculinity, and he clearly does not represent all men... Facepalm




[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like EvolutionKills's post
29-08-2017, 08:55 AM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2017 09:24 AM by Emma.)
RE: Why are we obsessed with feminism again?
(28-08-2017 05:27 PM)BryanS Wrote:  
(28-08-2017 02:38 PM)morondog Wrote:  Yeah, it was news to me when I first heard of this behaviour. I've never been aware of it as a man. Lady friends have confirmed to me that harassment happens to them all the time. Still shocking every time I think about it.

It's shocking to us who do not act this way. We can acknowledge the need for vigilance in defending women's rights and basic decency while at the same time not treating all young men as presumed rapists. Raising awareness of this as an issue is a good thing. But the language used by some feminists--particularly on campus--treats all men as perpetrators. And in those cases, some feminists take things too far and create the potential for backlash.

Read this for its provocative gender reversal of the type of opinion piece one might read advocating women's' rights:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2...102015432/

"Rape culture", "teach men not to rape", "toxic masculinity"--these are slogans which cast all men as out of control and rape obsessed. And the author has a fair point about "rape gendering", where rape is defined as a male crime perpetrated on a female victim when studies done find 7% of men reported they were "made to penetrate". However that does not meet the CDC's definition of rape, so none of those who reported this would be considered in the statistics on sexual assault. ( see https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2.../16007089/ ).

For an example of how one sided this debate has become, a recent controversial case in the news saw a male expelled from school after a female performed oral sex on the male who was too drunk to consent. The female texted her plan before performing the act, and then bragged about it via text afterward. When the school determined he was guilty of sexual assault, they acknowledged that he was too drunk--having passed out--to agree or consent to oral sex. However he was determined by the school to have sexually assaulted the female and expelled. Even after the text messages were discovered, the school refused to reconsider its determination. (https://www.forbes.com/sites/georgeleef/...2810ea1929 )

The problem with this argument is that it neither addresses the problems experienced by women nor those experienced by men. Instead, it serves to simply distract from those issues and tries to halt progress toward those goals altogether by suggesting that feminism has "gone too far" or "men have issues, too"- without really acknowledging the issues women experience.

It's unfortunate that some people will take things too far, and sometimes human beings will make decisions that are faulty. But that doesn't negate an entire movement, especially one intended to redirect the status quo. As DJL has pointed out before, the pendulum sometimes swings too far in its quest for balance. But know that in the overall scope of pain being suffered- women generally have it worse right now- and they have for pretty much all of modern human history. Feminism is absolutely necessary to try to make things better for women. The goal isn't to make things worse for men, but some men will see it that way as the status quo moves away from their favored position- especially when the occasional overstep occurs.

No one is saying that there's never been or never will be a problem with men being treated unfairly. In fact, this is a major issue that I've seen discussed in feminist circles. Masculinity culture by and large is unfair to men- especially those that are not in perfect conformity (this is a part of the toxic masculinity concept). Yes, rape culture and yes toxic masculinity. These are discussed as part of this issue. Watch the Folding Ideas video that EK linked. It's really good at breaking down some major aspects of toxic masculinity.

And it's not necessarily saying that all things "masculine" is inherently toxic (although, I personally wish the "masculine" and "feminine" roles will fall away as important aspects in our society, they have not and I still participate in them and they are not necessarily part of this concept of toxicity).

Also, regarding that USA Today op-ed, "toxic masculinity" doesn't describe one's "gender identity", for fucks sake. A person does not identify as toxically masculine- or any kind of "masculine", and I would say somewhat jokingly that I suffered from "testosterone poisoning", in the sense that too much testosterone irreversibly changed my body in a way that is damaging to me. "Bro" is something dudes say to each other all the time. And this claim really ought to be justified beyond stating just the statistic and assuming a cause (especially considering the article they link to doesn't suggest anything of the sort) that supports their biased claim:

Quote:I hope that members of university communities nationwide will take this advice to heart. Male enrollment in colleges has been falling for some time now, with male students now a distinct minority in higher education nationwide, which suggests that colleges and universities have already created a hostile educational environment for male students.

Rape culture doesn't suggest that all men are rapists or attempt to excuse away rape or that no man can be trusted. But there are some very serious problems with the issues encompassed within these labels. And many people participate- not just men, but women too.

With that said, as ShadowProject pointed out, there are enough men out there that are part of the problem. Neither men nor women can simply identify who will be a threat and who will not by sight alone. They hide very well. So well, in fact, that many men are excused in bad behavior by those we can trust. Or that their guy friends don't understand how big a deal it is, so they brush it off. Read this blog post for a very good take-down of how insidious rape culture can be (https://captainawkward.com/2012/08/07/32...r-that-up/ ). Take note of whether or not your or your friends have ever had to say "it's not a big deal" or "he probably didn't mean it that way" or "he's actually a really good guy!" multiple times about one person in your group of friends. That is an aspect of rape culture that women are often familiar with but to which men are largely oblivious.

The problem is that you cannot have these conversations with many men, because they feel "attacked". But more and more people are participating in these conversations. More and more men, too, and for the general betterment of society, in my opinion.

Edit: I heavily edited my original post here. Sorry folks- I kept thinking of things I wanted to change. Blush
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Emma's post
29-08-2017, 02:56 PM
RE: Why are we obsessed with feminism again?
(29-08-2017 08:55 AM)Emma Wrote:  Read this blog post for a very good take-down of how insidious rape culture can be (https://captainawkward.com/2012/08/07/32...r-that-up/ ).

This is an excellent link. Only read it now.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes morondog's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: