Why aren't children treated like Adults?
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20-03-2012, 05:38 AM
RE: Why aren't children treated like Adults?
TAS.

You have made a post full of contradictions and illogical thinking. You have narrowed the field of psychology to one of personal shrinks. You learn by observation, so how does your child learn? Is there a chance it could involve observation, what would that child be observing when you spank him? What are you teaching him?

My children rarely misbehave, they have discipline and boundaries that they are well aware of. I can't remember the last time I had to tell my 9 year old off. Then again he is mature for his age, he is 2 years ahead at school, has a large social circle and is very active. He has had a couple of fights, but these have been due to him standing up for someone else or because someone has tried to hit him first. Neither of which will I scold him for, despite the frustration of the teacher at the time. Life lessons are more important than a school record. I'm sure at some point he will go off the rails and when he does I will remember and think to myself, I am such a dumbass if only I had listened to the arrogant high school kid with no children of his own or experience in parenting I could have done so much better.

The truth is not arrogance, it is the way you present it that makes it arrogant.

I can't go on. I would have this discussion with someone deserving of the level of input required to put my points across. For me, you are not deserving, so I am therefore unwilling to spend the time required.

"Belief means not wanting to know what is true"
Friedrich Nietzsche
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20-03-2012, 06:54 AM
RE: Why aren't children treated like Adults?
We've had a discussion about spanking children before. I remember it was pretty polarising.

I have a few problems with logic of the the Original Post.

You don't spank adults. If you spanked an adult for misbehaving, they could sue you and land you in prison for assault. Why are you equating treating children as adults with spanking them?

I believe in treating children as adults, in not lying to them or treating them as if their opinion doesn't matter. If you treat them as adults, you respect their feelings and their bodies, and you don't lay a hand on them.

And there are no studies that show that spanking your children will stop them becoming criminals later in life. If you have these studies, please show them to me and prove me wrong. Do you remember being a child? Do you remember how it felt to be hit by someone larger and stronger than yourself?

I will never spank my child. And if I see someone doing it, I will call the garda.

"But the point is, find somebody to love. Everything else is overrated." - HouseofCantor
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20-03-2012, 06:55 AM (This post was last modified: 20-03-2012 06:59 AM by Leela.)
RE: Why aren't children treated like Adults?
TAS sorry but how do you think will spanking solve the real problem? Apart from "if i do this I get spanked" the child will not make any other connection. If you take the less easy way you will tell your child what was wrong and what is expected from it and then you will give it whatever sanction you think is right. I would take care that the sanction fits the misbehavior.
Example:
Kid throws dinner on the floor, explanation from my side "I cooked for you to not be hungry, you know you don't get anything else, and as you are fine with throwing food on the floor you will clean it up and go to bed without dinner"
Next time it will think about it. A spank would not solve anything, there is no understanding.

Also psychologist are obviously needed and you answered it yourself. Because there are people who are not able to review themselfes. They need someone to hint them into the right direction and that is what a psychologist is for. Same goes for "experts" on childbehaviour. Sadly there are parents who are unable to educate their kids, and those need help. If you aggree on that doesn't matter, fact is people need help with pretty much everything if they never learnt it. I don't need a cook or a cleaning lady at home because I know how to cook and clean but there are people who don't and they pay for that stuff to be done.

I find it sad that you always open discussions but there is no way to discuss matters with you because you are obviously too closed minded to at least try and understand what others say. Or is your purpose of opening discussions to make others think your way? Because in that case I know what I will not read anymore.


smoosh:
never say never. sometimes you may give it a soft hit on the hands to prevent bad things from happening. Imagine you are cooking, your kid comes and wants to touch the oven surface. I'd rather hit it on the fingers than let it go with a bad burn from the oven.
I am not sure calling gardai would help to be honest. Worst case is that this separates a loving family just because you misjudge the situation. Of course not talking about seeing someone hitting their child bloody or so...

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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20-03-2012, 07:30 AM (This post was last modified: 20-03-2012 07:41 AM by TheArcticSage.)
RE: Why aren't children treated like Adults?
Smooshmonster and Leela I'm going to try and cover a few points here, spanking them isn't about punishment, it's about discipline. You shouldn't have to spank/punch an adult because they should be disciplined already. And yeah I'm not saying every little wrong deserves a spanking, just a little something when discipline is required.

Yes, I am closed minded on this subject, that's due to experience. I've seen parents who honestly never spank their children and they 'think' that it's the best way. I saw one mother checking out of the grocery store while I was cashiering, that poor mother. The child was screaming, kicking, knocking stuff over, everyone in the store was trying their best not to stare. I myself was trying to stay at my register and not walk over there and swat his ass (if I had intervened at all I might have lost my job). He even hit the mother you know that? That's the crap I see day in and day out with people who don't spank their kids. Maybe not as bad as that incident but pretty close. Like I said, it's not about punishment, it's about discipline, and kind words and empty stomachs will not do that.

And about the psychologist, that doesn't mean they need a psychologist, that just means someone needs to teach them how to observe their own psychology... or they can teach themselves! I taught myself. It's how I became an atheist, no big decision goes through my life without me observing myself first. I've almost killed most of my emotions, emotions ruin reality, and they also clog up your mind. One can not think rationally while being emotional.
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20-03-2012, 07:51 AM
RE: Why aren't children treated like Adults?
(20-03-2012 07:30 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  I've seen parents who honestly never spank their children and they 'think' that it's the best way. I saw one mother checking out of the grocery store while I was cashiering, that poor mother. The child was screaming, kicking, knocking stuff over, everyone in the store was trying their best not to stare. I myself was trying to stay at my register and walk over there and swat his ass (if I had intervened at all I might have lost my job). He even hit the mother you know that? That's the crap I see day in and day out with people who don't spank their kids. Maybe not as bad as that incident but pretty close. Like I said, it's not about punishment, it's about discipline, and kind words and empty stomachs will not do that.

You can't attribute the kids misbehaviour to not being spanked. Some kids get spanked a lot and they act up just as much. You *can* attribute it to the parent not being top dog. If a kid knows they're in control, they *will* abuse the power. But you can discipline your kid without spanking. And any stranger who attempted to smack a kid of mine... well Tongue In that sort of situation I could see myself getting violent.
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20-03-2012, 07:57 AM
RE: Why aren't children treated like Adults?
(20-03-2012 07:30 AM)TheArcticSage Wrote:  I taught myself. It's how I became an atheist, no big decision goes through my life without me observing myself first. I've almost killed most of my emotions, emotions ruin reality, and they also clog up your mind. One can not think rationally while being emotional.

Really, it doesn't show in the slightest. Big Grin

Is emotion prophetic.

From this article. May be worth considering before you get rid of any sign of humanity that you may have once possessed. I believe your referring to making rash decisions based on emotions, which is completely different to having emotions. You carry on though, we already know you are right.

Quote:What explains these paradoxical results? The answer involves processing power. In recent years, it’s become clear that the unconscious brain is able to process vast amounts of information in parallel, thus allowing it to analyze large data sets without getting overwhelmed. (Human reason, in contrast, has a very strict bottleneck and can only process about four bits of data at any given moment.) But this raises the obvious question: how do we gain access to all this analysis, which by definition is taking place outside of conscious awareness?

Here’s where emotions come in handy. Every feeling is like a summary of data, a quick encapsulation of all the information processing that we don’t have access to. (As Pham puts it, emotions are like a “privileged window” into the subterranean mind.) When it comes to making predictions about complex events, this extra information is often essential. It represents the difference between an informed guess and random chance.

"Belief means not wanting to know what is true"
Friedrich Nietzsche
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20-03-2012, 09:04 AM
RE: Why aren't children treated like Adults?
Aahhh does anyone else get the feeling of an exploding thoughtstorm when one's reading child abusive shit?


I'll just paraphrase (i'm sure the book's out there in english but I've got the quote in german only) what even you could find by simple observation:
If you preach morality to a child, it learns to preach morality, if you warn it, it learns to warn, if you scold it, it learns to scold, if you laugh at it, it learns to laugh at, if you humiliate it, it learns to humiliate, if you kill its soul, it learns to kill. It then only has the choice whether itself or others or both"
by Alice Miller "Am Anfang war Erziehung" (At the beginning there was Upbringing)

I'm truly grateful so many contradict the TSs views.

I don't understand the position at all. Most (american) Atheists had to lay off their shackles they were bound with from early childhood onwards. And that is normally "just" mental abuse. I don't want to know what additional physical abuse could cause...

There's a reason why many countries penalize abuse or violence (towards children)
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20-03-2012, 09:12 AM
RE: Why aren't children treated like Adults?
sorry TAS but still no valid argument for spanking. If it is old enough to act up in the supermarket the parents did something wrong for a long time because otherwise she would just have to say "come here and be quiet" and the child would do it. So in this case it is not the kid that needs a spank but the mother who needs to learn how to calm down her kid and get it to behave.
I have not been spanked but I also never acted up, even as a little child. All I did was talk a lot and ask a lot and when it got too much my mother told me to be quiet and i was. And that worked without spanking. My brothers on the other hand grew up with my father who spanked a lot and both my brothers ended up in jail. Does this debunk your spanking at least a little? Wink

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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20-03-2012, 09:24 AM
RE: Why aren't children treated like Adults?
This is, of course, assuming most adults act "adult". I think spanking children is wrong. Striking a child is pathetic and it really does not fix anything.

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20-03-2012, 09:24 AM (This post was last modified: 20-03-2012 09:28 AM by Eternal.)
RE: Why aren't children treated like Adults?
TAS

I just noticed that super nanny or whatever it is called was mentioned by you. Do you think she gets results? Have you ever seen her once spank a child, or suggest to a parent they should do so? Not that you would pay any attention, after all she specialises in child behaviour which you don't agree with.

I must agree though, when a person dedicates their working life (sometimes more) to the pursuit of knowledge in a single field then they can have nothing of interest to tell us. What is the point in listening. After all they have probably observed way more than us, taken part in tests, read extensively and gained years of practical experience through trial and error. Yet this does not amount to anything when compared to your observations made whilst cashiering. (Sarcasm. I'm not sure why but i felt the need to point out the sarcasm.)

"Belief means not wanting to know what is true"
Friedrich Nietzsche
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