Why aren't more atheists vegan?
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03-03-2016, 05:28 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 11:45 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 11:42 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Quibbling aside, please explain how that means she has less responsibility for the deaths of animals, which I'm sure you're aware was my point.

I doubt the animals care why they're being killed. The idea that she is less guilty for not eating the animals she has helped to kill is her absurdity not mine.

Not less responsibility for the deaths that occur, but responsibility for fewer deaths, as a biological inevitability. Which is not quite the same thing; maybe I wasn't clear enough.

I'm unsure about your metric. I'll be willing to bet an acre of land supports more groundhogs than cattle, but when that earth is tilled, how many burrows are torn up? How many animals are killed per acre? Jackrabbits need cover, squirrels need trees, mosquitoes need standing water: each species is narrowed in scope by the depredations of human farmers, no matter the crop or herd cultivated.

If the metric is numbers of deaths, farming is not only deadly immediately, but just as deadly on the basis of species-extinction as clear-cut ranching.

Farming destroys natural environment, is my point.

(03-03-2016 11:45 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Let's consider as premises that the deaths are both strictly bad and stricly necessary. The conclusion follows that they should be minimised, yes?


On those premises, yes. The real question is, are all deaths equal?

I reckon you'd like to elide that point, but the fact of the matter is that with very few exceptions, all life is built upon and energized by the death of other life.

Death cannot be minimized. It is a fact of life. The only difference between ranchers who raise cattle and wolves who depredate them is that farmers have an organized system. That is exactly why the OP is mounting her argument: because it is human activity.

If animals ranched other animals, would she complain? Does she complain about sharks herding fish into kill-schools?

The only difference between humans and other animals is that we have organized our predatory behavior. Why is it that in our behavior there is assumed a moral dimension, when the only thing we're doing is using the brain endowed upon us by evolution?
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03-03-2016, 05:30 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 05:02 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 11:41 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Why aren't more vegans fruitarians? Harvesting fruit don't hurt the tree.

Animals die when mowing an orchard or a field.

Drop leaflets letting the insects know what's coming.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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03-03-2016, 05:35 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 12:01 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 11:42 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Fair enough. Quibbling aside, please explain how that means she has less responsibility for the deaths of animals, which I'm sure you're aware was my point.

I doubt the animals care why they're being killed. The idea that she is less guilty for not eating the animals she has helped to kill is her absurdity not mine.

Quibbling aside, you're projecting your own ethic on the matter, onto others, which arose from the fact that you never had to worry about how to obtain these nutrients, and always had the resources and ability to go to the mall and pick them up, while you were there getting your hair streaked. Like fer sure. *gum snap*

I am responding to her own imposition of ethics, thank you very much. You still haven't explained why her responsibility is less, either. I look forward to your limboing under that bar.

I'm not sure what that gum-snap shit is about, but if it's cool, read it as being the end of this post and consider yourself smart-alecked.
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03-03-2016, 05:46 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 05:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 12:29 PM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  Ironically, my most militant vegan friend thinks that Jesus was vegan and the you can't be a True Christian™ unless you are also vegan. If you think normal Christian Apologetics are bad, try wrapping your head around Christian Vegan Apologetics... Sadcryface

Anyway, I don't have an argument against the ethical position that a vegan diet and lifestyle (e.g. not wearing or using animal products or those tested on animals) reduces the suffering of sentient creatures and respect anyone who makes that choice for themselves.

However, when people start claiming that a vegan diet is the healthiest diet, that's where we part company. From what I've seen, those claims are based on a false equivalency between a diet that includes animals and animal products and a Standard Western Diet and T. Colin Campbell extrapolating the link he saw between casein and tumors in rats to ALL meat while ignoring the anti-cancer properties of whey protein.

That's just the start of it, but while it is possible for humans to survive without meat or animal products, I'm more interested in thriving and than surviving. So I freely admit that I selfishly place my own health and well-being and that of my species ahead of that of other species.

Yabut, loaves and fishes. Consider

Fishes. Facepalm

And he "ate the passover " (lamb)

Of course, there's also the wholesale slaughter of animals in the OT mandated by Yahweh as part of sacrifices and various genocides... Facepalm

"I feel as though the camera is almost a kind of voyeur in Mr. Beans life, and you just watch this bizarre man going about his life in the way that he wants to."

-Rowan Atkinson
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03-03-2016, 05:48 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 02:14 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 10:06 AM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  Plants are alive. They arent like you and me of course, but abuse is abuse, another creature that shares the planet with us and everything has the right to be alive. Right?

Plants most likely aren't sentient, so this point is incredibly weak. The main objection vegans/vegetarians have is that "killing any sentient being is wrong". Not saying I agree with that, but I don't see "plants are alive" as a good counterargument by any stretch. At best, it's highly superficial and misses the point.

Eggs aren't, and never were, sentient, yet vegans eschew them. Cheese isn't, and never was, sentient, yet vegans eschew it.

I don't think sentience is the qualifier.
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03-03-2016, 05:53 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 04:46 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  For starts I stand as a pro-choice when it comes to veganism. I wouldn't live that way, but you have every right to do what you want with your body.

You're also very lucky live in a time that has ample supply of veggies and cultivating technecs that allow for this alternative life style. Many parts of the world also don't have the accessibility or climates that would allow the options you have.

I to would prefer a more humanie method of killing. But in all honesty I couldn't tell the difference between at cow that was heavily medicated before being killed or slowly strangled to death while it's children watched.

And as it was said before we're omnivores. That fact that our bodies are capable of eating meat is enough for me to say it's alright. Speaking to vegetarians/vegans in the past these exsuses isn't enough. But i'm not here to force you to put or do anything you don't want to, or desire. The only thing I would ask is to back up a little.

The other day I was eating sushi with my wife and the chef their we've gotten to know a little told us he was quiting. When we asked why he said he was becoming a vegan. And didn't feel moraly right to serve the food he's against. We gave our "Sorry to see you leave. But good for you to sticking with your morals." response. But he wouldn't shut up about it. He just went on and on about all the foods he not eating anymore. How he doesn't like thinking about gutting fish.

The only thing that bothers be most about the vegan movement is that i comes off as bragging. Like they better people for choosing this path. Or that i'm morally wrong for not making the same decision. That just makes me want to have a steak even more. I a meet someone that looked healthier that was physically active and I found out on my own or maybe me asking them what their secret was, and found out it was because they gave up meat. Maybe I would try it out. But that's not what happens. Most of the time they just come off as smug, pretentious assholes.

A question I would have for Rosie. Would you be willing to eat meat as long as it didn't come from an animal?









For me, it honestly depends on the methods in which the original tissue is gathered, but on the surface without knowing how the animal is treated or any other data regarding it, I would probably not consume it. Not that I don't think it's marvelous idea and would undoubtedly help decrease animal cruelty. If however, the methods are not innately cruel and the original animal that the sample was collected from isn't suffering, then I think I would be more willing to try it. From my perspective, I'm just trying to decrease suffering where I can on personal level, so if the animal doesn't suffer then I don't see the harm. Smile Thanks for sharing!
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03-03-2016, 05:55 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 05:48 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 02:14 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  Plants most likely aren't sentient, so this point is incredibly weak. The main objection vegans/vegetarians have is that "killing any sentient being is wrong". Not saying I agree with that, but I don't see "plants are alive" as a good counterargument by any stretch. At best, it's highly superficial and misses the point.

Eggs aren't, and never were, sentient, yet vegans eschew them. Cheese isn't, and never was, sentient, yet vegans eschew it.

I don't think sentience is the qualifier.



Vegans avoid those products due to the inhumane conditions/situations and suffering that animals go through to produce them.
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03-03-2016, 06:03 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 05:30 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 05:02 PM)Chas Wrote:  Animals die when mowing an orchard or a field.

Drop leaflets letting the insects know what's coming.

Omfg girly you're brilliant.

Drop leaflets to let insects know.....

BowingBowingBowingBowing


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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03-03-2016, 06:03 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2016 06:08 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 03:30 PM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  So, I wonder what right we have to end their existence when it is unnecessary?

What right does the lion have to eat the zebra? What right does the coyote have to eat the rabbit?

Rights are human constructs, applicable to humans and also revocable by humans (e.g. convicts losing the right to vote).

There is no right to life. Death may strike you at any time, and you will have no appeal. I think you're really asking, "what obligation do we humans have to animals?", and that's a fair question.

I think we have the obligation to provide for our feed-animals a pain-free life. I think we have an obligation to provide for them a life that satisfies their evolutionary heritage -- I buy free-range chicken and eggs, grass-fed beef -- but I don't think that we are obligated to abnegate our own omnivorous evolutionary heritage, because quite simply, we are animals too. We've simply organized our predation.

In many cases, and those cases are growing in number, we've provided for a better life than those animals might have expected under "natural" conditions.
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03-03-2016, 06:05 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
I'm not a vegetarian because plant lives matter!

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