Why aren't more atheists vegan?
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03-03-2016, 06:05 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 05:55 PM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 05:48 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Eggs aren't, and never were, sentient, yet vegans eschew them. Cheese isn't, and never was, sentient, yet vegans eschew it.

I don't think sentience is the qualifier.



Vegans avoid those products due to the inhumane conditions/situations and suffering that animals go through to produce them.

I buy eggs produced from free-range hens. How am I going wrong?
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03-03-2016, 06:11 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2016 06:25 PM by Full Circle.)
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 02:50 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 02:29 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I stand by my points.

Do you stand by accusing OP of endorsing global totalitarianism to the point of forced population movements and mass slaughter?

Because seriously, where did that even come from?

(03-03-2016 02:29 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Read "Where the Wild Things Were" for scientific findings on what happens when bottom up ecological webs are the norm.

All ecology is bottom-up.

To claim that increased efficiency in food production would lead to a decrease in total food production is nonsense. Period.

Read the book and you'll change your viewpoint.

Ps traveling, in airports/planes no time to elaborate further presently

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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03-03-2016, 06:21 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 06:05 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 05:55 PM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  Vegans avoid those products due to the inhumane conditions/situations and suffering that animals go through to produce them.

I buy eggs produced from free-range hens. How am I going wrong?

So do I. I buy everything I can free range and no antibiotics. Whenever possible I buy from local farmers.

The other thing is that I don't trust the vegan diet, consisting of so many processed, fake things. I avoid processed foods wherever I can. Show me valid statistics tracking a decent number of people for like 80 years ( a life time) eating that way, and maybe I'll trust it.

Meanwhile I eat what I have evolved to eat. It is definitely the safest.

I really wish though that today's young people would get behind humane treatment for animals. I am old and done with causes, I got behind the gay, equal rights and cannabis causes and feel I have done what I can do in one life time. It's time Vegans and others who feel empathy for the other animals stepped up and did something that helps all those animals. Not just the one cow you might eat in a life time, and the one pig or however many etc. It's a drop in the bucket, and you are risking your health and not making the impact you could be making for all those animals.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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03-03-2016, 06:31 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2016 06:36 PM by Momsurroundedbyboys.)
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 05:55 PM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 05:48 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Eggs aren't, and never were, sentient, yet vegans eschew them. Cheese isn't, and never was, sentient, yet vegans eschew it.

I don't think sentience is the qualifier.



Vegans avoid those products due to the inhumane conditions/situations and suffering that animals go through to produce them.

See, this is what I don't understand. There are humane farms and ranchers. So, some or even most are bad, so all are evil and should be avoided?

What about the person who raises their own chickens?

I actually understand the people who don't just don't like meat and opt instead to not eat it. But the people who get all preachy about the big corporate slaughterhouses and feel so terrible for the poor suffering animals -- you have alternatives. You can choose to support the small humane rancher. They're growing in numbers. Yes, you'll pay a little more but you're helping them and the animals, and you'd be fostering a healthy change.

I'll always make an effort to support the small independent bookstore, coffee shop, ice cream, bakery etc rather than the Starbucks, barns and nobles, I wish we had more independent restaurants. But they've been run out, by the Olive Garden's and the other crap chains.

To be clear Rosie I'm not saying you're like this....I'm speaking in more a general way. It's just something I've noticed over the years and I really don't understand it.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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03-03-2016, 06:43 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 06:21 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 06:05 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I buy eggs produced from free-range hens. How am I going wrong?

So do I. I buy everything I can free range and no antibiotics. Whenever possible I buy from local farmers.

The other thing is that I don't trust the vegan diet, consisting of so many processed, fake things. I avoid processed foods wherever I can. Show me valid statistics tracking a decent number of people for like 80 years ( a life time) eating that way, and maybe I'll trust it.

Meanwhile I eat what I have evolved to eat. It is definitely the safest.

I really wish though that today's young people would get behind humane treatment for animals. I am old and done with causes, I got behind the gay, equal rights and cannabis causes and feel I have done what I can do in one life time. It's time Vegans and others who feel empathy for the other animals stepped up and did something that helps all those animals. Not just the one cow you might eat in a life time, and the one pig or however many etc. It's a drop in the bucket, and you are risking your health and not making the impact you could be making for all those animals.

I'm definitely anti processed foods. It's getting to the point where I want to learn to make my own tortillas so I can make my own tortilla chips.

There used to be a Mexican family down the street from me when I was a little kid. The mom and the grandma made tortillas each day. They were sooo yummy...soft...all kinds of good. The grandma was kinda funny, she spoke little English, but she would yell at the kids for eating Doritos (that had become popular) and made her own version and they wanted the Doritos....wow.Laugh out load

The homemade frijoles were better than anything I've ever had since.

If only I were a little older I could have learned something really cool.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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03-03-2016, 07:40 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 06:21 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 06:05 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I buy eggs produced from free-range hens. How am I going wrong?

So do I. I buy everything I can free range and no antibiotics. Whenever possible I buy from local farmers.

The other thing is that I don't trust the vegan diet, consisting of so many processed, fake things. I avoid processed foods wherever I can. Show me valid statistics tracking a decent number of people for like 80 years ( a life time) eating that way, and maybe I'll trust it.

Meanwhile I eat what I have evolved to eat. It is definitely the safest.

This is very much where I'm at. To me, it's more important to avoid canned, processed, salted, HFCS'ed, polysyallbic foods than it is to avoid accepting my place in the scheme of things. And I buy local when I can not only to reduce my personal demand on preservative use and ingestion, but also to keep my money local.

I know that in posting this I'm courting the is/ought fallacy, but in the case of biology, I'm comfortable accepting evoluntionary demands.

(03-03-2016 06:21 PM)Dom Wrote:  I really wish though that today's young people would get behind humane treatment for animals. I am old and done with causes, I got behind the gay, equal rights and cannabis causes and feel I have done what I can do in one life time. It's time Vegans and others who feel empathy for the other animals stepped up and did something that helps all those animals. Not just the one cow you might eat in a life time, and the one pig or however many etc. It's a drop in the bucket, and you are risking your health and not making the impact you could be making for all those animals.

I think the OP of this thread is doing exactly that, and it's a conversation that is welcome from my own point-of-view. Good on her for speaking up -- even if I don't agree with her premises, the topic definitely bears thought. I feel empathy, myself, for the animals that sustain me, as much as I can given my reliance upon them
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03-03-2016, 07:49 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 06:05 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 05:55 PM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  Vegans avoid those products due to the inhumane conditions/situations and suffering that animals go through to produce them.

I buy eggs produced from free-range hens. How am I going wrong?

It honestly depends on the situation the animal is exposed to when it comes to things like this in a vegan's mind. If the animal is living freely and not suffering in its situation and has no use of the product, then technically from an ethical-vegan standpoint, there is nothing wrong with that product.
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03-03-2016, 07:52 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 10:02 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  I'm an atheist vegan and I'm also a medical student. The way I see it is that YES animals/animal products contain nutrients that humans need to function properly (primarily vitamin b12, which is not commonly found in plants), so our consumption of other animals is understandable in that sense--BUT we also have access to (vitamin) supplements that make the consumption of animals/animal products UNNECESSARY. So, why would any person willfully and knowingly advocate for the suffering, torture, and death of another living being when it isn't necessary for our physiology to function properly due to the availability of supplementation?
It's not my goal to avoid all suffering and death of all living animals.

Let's say I save a cow from the slaughter house. I get no thanks for it. The cow doesn't reward me, cow kind doesn't reward me.

If I eat cow, I don't get any negative consequences. Cow kind doesn't rise up and oppose me. Other people don't oppose me, shun me or lock me up.

So, there are no positive consequences (for me) in saving the cow. There are no negative consequences (for me) in eating the cow.

If I feel like eating a steak and I have the means to do so, and there aren't any other alternatives that tickle my fancy, then I have a steak. I certainly would prefer to eat a steak than eat a vege burger or swallowing vitamin pills.

It's not just about fulfilling my dietary needs. My taste buds need to be tantalised, I like to enjoy the experience of eating.
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03-03-2016, 08:28 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 07:49 PM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 06:05 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I buy eggs produced from free-range hens. How am I going wrong?

It honestly depends on the situation the animal is exposed to when it comes to things like this in a vegan's mind. If the animal is living freely and not suffering in its situation and has no use of the product, then technically from an ethical-vegan standpoint, there is nothing wrong with that product.

This is the minutia that I don't understand. If the chicken isn't somewhat protected it will very well die, there are other animals and the weather to deal with. Better to be killed by a neighborhood cat or dog (and tortured or left to a painful death) than be humanely killed and used for food by people?

I prefer to look at this way, is the animal (in this case a chicken) safe from other animals that might want to eat it? Is it protected from weather (excessive, sun, wind, rain, snow, ice)? Is it given medical attention if it becomes ill? Does it have access to clean water? It should be allowed to forage because that's what chickens do and if needed have it's diet supplemented from feed. If the answer is yes to all of these, I'm fine with eating the eggs.

If a cow is killed in a humane way, why not use its skin to make leather? It's dead and not going to feel it. Traditionally the ranch/food/cow/leather trades went hand in hand. I actually believe that we should use everything we can from a dead animal. I had a crazy aunt that used the rendered lard from beef to make soap. It was actually not bad from what I recall.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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03-03-2016, 08:42 PM
Why aren't more atheists vegan?
I came in late, as I'm on a semi-sabbatical. I didn't read all of the posts and won't.

First, Jainism (I think) says you can't kill a plant to eat it. Therefore, potatoes and carrots are not allowed. Apples are because they don't require killing. Are they wrong?

Their morality says even OP is wrong.

As a theist I considered going some sort of veghead. My family's patron saint was St Francis of Assisi so I thought maybe that was good.

As an atheist I realized no matter how intelligent we are, we're animals. You can overlook that, and that's your choice. But telling anyone it makes more sense is way too similar to dogma and doctrine for me.

My maternal great-grandmother was Cree. My mother's family were farmers. So maybe I'm one of the enemies here. Did they kill as humanely as possible? Yes. However, and maybe this is the Cree in me, I am always keenly aware that something died when I eat meat. I may not thank it (since I don't believe in praying or afterlife) but I am careful to know my place in the food chain.

Do I expect anyone here to like or share those ideas? Nope. Not in the slightest.

It's fine that someone is vegetarian, flexitarian, pescatarian, ovolacto, or full vegan. But to say it makes more sense is pushy.

Lastly, is anyone 100% certain plants don't feel pain? Jains seem to think so. Science says probably not. But eating a plant still requires the forced cessation of an organism's natural cycle.
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