Why aren't more atheists vegan?
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04-03-2016, 04:22 AM (This post was last modified: 04-03-2016 04:27 AM by Black Eagle.)
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
I suspect that many of you know who Temple Grandin is. A movie was made about her and it's very interesting. For those who don't know she is a professor of animal science at Colorado State University in Fort Collins, Co. She is severely autistic and thinks almost entirely in pictures. She has written several books -- some about animal science and some about autism. She is also an inventor and one of the things she has invented is a circular and narrow cattle chute for slaughter houses. It actually calms the cattle considerably as they move to the killers.

I know there are a couple of hunters besides me on this board. One of the things we learn early is the faster an animal dies, the less lactic acid is produced in the muscle tissue and the less "gamy" the animal tastes. What we strive for is sometimes called, "a bang flop." That is, the gun goes off and the animal drops without running and pumping any lactic acid in to its muscles. A quick kill, followed by quickly gutting the animal so the meat cools rapidly, prevents the "gamy" taste that many people associate with wild game meat.
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04-03-2016, 04:25 AM (This post was last modified: 04-03-2016 04:30 AM by god has no twitter account.)
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(04-03-2016 03:43 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 03:28 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  The animals that we eat would never have been bred in the first place if Man didn't eat them. Millions of chickens, for example, are bred on factory farms to be eaten within a few short months of being born. If Man didn't eat them, they would never have been bred. Man doesn't need millions of chickens as pets. I'm not saying it's right but it is the way it is and I can't see Man changing any day soon.

Man seems able to draw a distinction between animals that he keeps as pets and cares for and loves and those that are bred for the sole purpose of eating.

In regard to you last sentence, I agree and it seems to be based a lot on the culture they are surrounded by.
It's not just the culture though, is it?

Much is based on necessity and some on ignorance.

For example - let's take the shoes that you wear. Are they leather or are they man-made? Did you check when you bought them?

To kill a cow to provide nourishment for your children is one thing. To kill a cow to adorn your feet is quite another.

Pigs are the most widely used animal in the world. As the joke goes, the only part of the pig that isn't used is the squeal. It is used to make all sorts of products that you just wouldn't think. Are you sure that you haven't used any pig today? Have you checked?

Killing an animal is killing an animal - regardless of whether that animal is used for food or for products that Man uses.

Me? I accept that animals are bred and killed to provide Man with food and goods.

What I find difficult to accept is when a vegan gets all sanctimonious about killing animals and wears leather shoes.

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04-03-2016, 04:35 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(04-03-2016 04:22 AM)Black Eagle Wrote:  I suspect that many of you know who Temple Grandin is. A movie was made about her and it's very interesting. For those who don't know she is a professor of animal science at Colorado State University in Fort Collins, Co. She is severely autistic and thinks almost entirely in pictures. She has written several books -- some about animal science and some about autism. She is also an inventor and one of the things she has invented is a circular and narrow cattle chute for slaughter houses. It actually calms the cattle considerably as they move to the killers.

I know there are a couple of hunters besides me on this board. One of the things we learn early is the faster an animal dies, the less lactic acid is produced in the muscle tissue and the less "gamy" the animal tastes. What we strive for is sometimes called, "a bang flop." That is, the gun goes off and the animal drops without running and pumping any lactic acid in to its muscles. A quick kill, followed by quickly gutting the animal so the meat cools rapidly, prevents the "gamy" taste that many people associate with wild game meat.

Yup. When I was young, my father had a small farm. We kept all sorts of animals for the table. He would kill them as humanly as possible and, within minutes, they were skinned and gutted and on their way back for mum to cook. He never explained why things happened so quickly. He just knew it had to be that way. He's no longer alive, sadly. But, at least, I now know why.

Thank you.

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04-03-2016, 05:03 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 10:20 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 08:42 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  Lastly, is anyone 100% certain plants don't feel pain?




The not so sensitive asshole plant.

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04-03-2016, 06:46 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(04-03-2016 04:22 AM)Black Eagle Wrote:  I suspect that many of you know who Temple Grandin is. A movie was made about her and it's very interesting. For those who don't know she is a professor of animal science at Colorado State University in Fort Collins, Co. She is severely autistic and thinks almost entirely in pictures. She has written several books -- some about animal science and some about autism. She is also an inventor and one of the things she has invented is a circular and narrow cattle chute for slaughter houses. It actually calms the cattle considerably as they move to the killers.

I know there are a couple of hunters besides me on this board. One of the things we learn early is the faster an animal dies, the less lactic acid is produced in the muscle tissue and the less "gamy" the animal tastes. What we strive for is sometimes called, "a bang flop." That is, the gun goes off and the animal drops without running and pumping any lactic acid in to its muscles. A quick kill, followed by quickly gutting the animal so the meat cools rapidly, prevents the "gamy" taste that many people associate with wild game meat.

I always thought the gamy taste came from poor diet (pine needles and the like, during a hard winter) --- of from the guys who hang the meat to age in 50 degree temps......(I've had venison at other people's dinner table that did taste a bit "off"..)

I've only had a couple deer run any appreciable distance, so I don't have any experience with eating a bad kill..................

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04-03-2016, 06:56 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(04-03-2016 03:10 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  From what I can tell from most of the responses (1) most people don't care at all if someone else is vegan and (2) they personally choose to stick to diets that are more in line with how they have evolved to survive as humans and (3) they shouldn't have to feel bad for how their biology is and what it requires to function properly.
I don't think that people should have a resentment toward how their bodies function/what they require (yay for positive body image!), so this makes sense to me. I do think that empathy is an evolved trait--not simply found in humans--and I do think that veganism is a very kind way of living, but most people I've spoken with have simply stated that being vegan in general is unnecessary for them to function properly and that they are not required to NOT consume animals due to the necessary nutrient found in them and their personal choice to stay on the natural diet that provides them. It has also been mentioned that most people are very much so in support of the humane treatment of animals and that the animals death should be as stress-free and painless as possible. I've found it interesting to see where different people drew the line on this topic. I agree that empathy (for each other, for animals, for anything) is a sliding scale for each person, so could the question of why aren't more people vegan be interpreted as: "why aren't people more empathetic towards animals when you can be?". Any thoughts on this?

Empathy is a necessary attribute for the survival of the species. It makes us take care of babies who are helpless and support our own species.

Cross species empathy exists as well, not just in us but also in other species.

However, for centuries people have hardened themselves by telling themselves that animals are not the same as us and don't feel pain the way we do so they could raise and slaughter them.

There is cognitive dissonance in this.

Individuals are endowed with varying amounts of empathy, just like all other human traits vary from person to person. Many people have little or no cross species empathy and justify it by insisting that other species are not the same as humans and not in need of our empathy, despite evidence to the contrary.

I can go as far as extending this to plants - we really just don't know enough about plants yet. Until we can disprove it, we can assume that plants feel pain. Or not. We just don't know for sure.

Killing or consuming the deceased is part of life on this planet. Death itself is not unpleasant, the process of dying can however be horrific.

I am hoping that this generation of young people will make it their business to put a stop to unnecessary suffering. Vegans are trying to do this on a personal level in their own way. To make any real difference though, it needs to be done on a legal level and effect social evolution. There is absolutely no reason why we can't do away with the suffering while still enjoying the diet we have evolved to enjoy.

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04-03-2016, 07:10 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(04-03-2016 06:56 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 03:10 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  From what I can tell from most of the responses (1) most people don't care at all if someone else is vegan and (2) they personally choose to stick to diets that are more in line with how they have evolved to survive as humans and (3) they shouldn't have to feel bad for how their biology is and what it requires to function properly.
I don't think that people should have a resentment toward how their bodies function/what they require (yay for positive body image!), so this makes sense to me. I do think that empathy is an evolved trait--not simply found in humans--and I do think that veganism is a very kind way of living, but most people I've spoken with have simply stated that being vegan in general is unnecessary for them to function properly and that they are not required to NOT consume animals due to the necessary nutrient found in them and their personal choice to stay on the natural diet that provides them. It has also been mentioned that most people are very much so in support of the humane treatment of animals and that the animals death should be as stress-free and painless as possible. I've found it interesting to see where different people drew the line on this topic. I agree that empathy (for each other, for animals, for anything) is a sliding scale for each person, so could the question of why aren't more people vegan be interpreted as: "why aren't people more empathetic towards animals when you can be?". Any thoughts on this?

Empathy is a necessary attribute for the survival of the species. It makes us take care of babies who are helpless and support our own species.

Cross species empathy exists as well, not just in us but also in other species.

However, for centuries people have hardened themselves by telling themselves that animals are not the same as us and don't feel pain the way we do so they could raise and slaughter them.

There is cognitive dissonance in this.

Individuals are endowed with varying amounts of empathy, just like all other human traits vary from person to person. Many people have little or no cross species empathy and justify it by insisting that other species are not the same as humans and not in need of our empathy, despite evidence to the contrary.

I can go as far as extending this to plants - we really just don't know enough about plants yet. Until we can disprove it, we can assume that plants feel pain. Or not. We just don't know for sure.

Killing or consuming the deceased is part of life on this planet. Death itself is not unpleasant, the process of dying can however be horrific.

I am hoping that this generation of young people will make it their business to put a stop to unnecessary suffering. Vegans are trying to do this on a personal level in their own way. To make any real difference though, it needs to be done on a legal level and effect social evolution. There is absolutely no reason why we can't do away with the suffering while still enjoying the diet we have evolved to enjoy.

Absolutely spot on. Because animals provide food and goods for Man, it does not mean that we should abuse them. If they are to be killed, then, it must be done as humanely as possible.

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04-03-2016, 08:44 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
Here are some lectures about the psychology of meat that I thought were interesting. I don't think they are perfect or complete way to look at the issue, but they were interesting points of view. I don't think some of the points necessarily applies to people posting in this particular thread, but I wondered what your opinions would be on it. It's about an hour, but sped up is fine too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vWbV9FPo_Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqE0gUCp...ture=cards
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04-03-2016, 09:10 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
We are part of nature; part of the natural food chain. I don't feel guilty for being at the top of the food chain. There is no point in torturing your food, and I am sure that a healthy dose of cross-species empathy is important to the future of humanity. However, that will not stop me from eating bacon.

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04-03-2016, 09:21 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(04-03-2016 08:44 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  Here are some lectures about the psychology of meat that I thought were interesting. I don't think they are perfect or complete way to look at the issue, but they were interesting points of view. I don't think some of the points necessarily applies to people posting in this particular thread, but I wondered what your opinions would be on it. It's about an hour, but sped up is fine too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vWbV9FPo_Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqE0gUCp...ture=cards

I'm more interested with what you think and why you think it. So, Rosieisaposie, shoes of leather or man-made and did you check before you bought them and do you check what you use in life to see if it contains animal products or not?

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