Why aren't more atheists vegan?
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04-03-2016, 01:41 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(04-03-2016 10:39 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 02:50 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Do you stand by accusing OP of endorsing global totalitarianism to the point of forced population movements and mass slaughter?

Because seriously, where did that even come from?


All ecology is bottom-up.

To claim that increased efficiency in food production would lead to a decrease in total food production is nonsense. Period.

Re-read my post, re-read your response...didn’t find the need to explain further as you seem to have missed my points altogether.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004JHY...TF8&btkr=1

Let’s discuss when you finish reading the science behind the top-down pyramid of ecological diversity and how the long held beliefs of bottom-up ecology has been refuted. Thumbsup

Except the thesis is nothing like you present in any case? Stolzenburg is not advocating a top-down paradigm. The inputs to heterotrophs are fundamentally the outputs of autotrophs - and feedback between populations is the very definition of ecology. His thesis is that disrupting equilibria has consequences.

Because, yes, "if we set every cow on earth free tomorrow it would be a major problem" is true, but it's true in the same sense that "if all the refined zinc on earth vanished tomorrow it would be a major problem" is.

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04-03-2016, 02:18 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(04-03-2016 11:16 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 10:55 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  US bills use a sizing agent made from animals... Better be buying everything in coins.

Really? That's really interesting! Can you post a link?

I know you didn't ask me, but I have the link handy. http://www.google.com/patents/WO1999042658A1?cl=en
The sizer is made from animal glue.
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04-03-2016, 02:33 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(04-03-2016 11:16 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 10:55 AM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  US bills use a sizing agent made from animals... Better be buying everything in coins.

Really? That's really interesting! Can you post a link?

Unfortunately I just heard it from someone, and can't find any info through Google... Could be completely false. I shoud have probably mentioned that.
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04-03-2016, 02:34 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(04-03-2016 02:18 PM)Black Eagle Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 11:16 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  Really? That's really interesting! Can you post a link?

I know you didn't ask me, but I have the link handy. http://www.google.com/patents/WO1999042658A1?cl=en
The sizer is made from animal glue.

Well well well... Thank you
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04-03-2016, 02:35 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
To be fair, a lot of those things aren't so much "let's kill animals to get these things" as "well, we've already got a bunch of dead animals... what can we use the non-food parts for?"

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04-03-2016, 02:44 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
By the way, it's pretty hard to avoid animal products. If you have fine musical instruments, violins,guitars, pianos, etc., they are frequently made using animal hide glue. Although there are synthetic glues available, most makers prefer hide, or horn and hoof, glues because they hold up much longer without separating. High quality veneer lumber is usually made with hide glue as well.
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04-03-2016, 02:47 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
Legitimate question: what counts as an animal product?

Because that only compounds on the root "what counts as an animal" and "what counts as sentient" questions...

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04-03-2016, 04:00 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
I haven't read all 17 pages so sorry if this is redundant.
I seen early in this topic someone brought up animal husbandry. I'd like to add that even wildlife relies on humans to some extent. If we stopped eating deer there would be an over abundance. Nature probably would figure out how to take care of the over abundance but it wouldn't be pretty. Disease and starvation would be in much higher numbers. Not to mention how many would end up wounded or dead from vehicles.
Animals kill and eat animals all the time. We don't fault a coyote for eating a rabbit. The rabbit, if it actually understands what death is, only knows it's being killed. It doesn't understand the coyote has no morality but humans do. A dead rabbit is dead either way. I have no problem sustaining myself with animals.
Also, I have trouble splitting hairs with what animal/mammal/bug is less worthy of dying for us to live. Combines kill indiscriminately. Bugs, bunnies, woodchucks. Simply tilling your garden will kill much life. I can't say for sure a worm is more or less okay with being killed than say a squirrel. I think for the most part it's just what we as individuals feel a closer connection to. I've seen people cry and get very upset over shooting a deer but have no emotion over smashing a hundred bugs on their windshield on their way to the movies.
Heck, I don't want to see my dogs injured or dead. I for sure have chosen to value their life more than a deer. So I understand we all have our own interpretation of wich animal is more important to us.
Sorry for such a long post. It's hard to wrap it up in a sentence or two.
Good topic to talk about.
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04-03-2016, 04:17 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(04-03-2016 11:23 AM)Black Eagle Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 10:10 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  Is it that have not stated what I think fully or is there is just a lack of interest in why I think these things? And yes, I try to avoid animal products whenever it is reasonable to and whenever there is another option. I also try to purchase products that are cruelty free (as compared to a vegan product).

I think you have made your point quite clearly. However, you are not going to get an onslaught of people rushing to join the vegan movement. Many of us have been brought up on meat and are not willing to give it up nor are we willing to give up a comfortable pair of leather boots. I have the luxury of being able to buy meat [when I buy it and don't kill it myself] from an organic and very humane rancher. My family and I minimize eating animals that haven't been killed humanely. Having said that, when I go to the east coast I eat lobster that has been boiled alive and the same is true of crab on the west coast. However, when I order this stuff in a restaurant, it is so damned good, I don't think about how it was killed. Nevertheless, I always come back to the fact that their death is still more humane than being ripped apart by a predator in their natural environment. We eat a lot of fish in my house and wild caught fish don't fare well in the humane death department either. I'm sorry about that but I'm still going to eat them and so is my family.

That's all fine and good, but I don't necessarily agree that it can be said that being boiled alive is more humane than any other form of death at the hands of another animal.
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04-03-2016, 04:18 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(04-03-2016 02:18 PM)Black Eagle Wrote:  
(04-03-2016 11:16 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  Really? That's really interesting! Can you post a link?

I know you didn't ask me, but I have the link handy. http://www.google.com/patents/WO1999042658A1?cl=en
The sizer is made from animal glue.

Thanks for info! Thumbsup
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