Why aren't more atheists vegan?
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05-03-2016, 03:58 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
Water slavery, oxygen slavery, sunlight slavery...Weeping

It never ends...we, as a species, are so horrible.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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05-03-2016, 05:49 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(05-03-2016 03:50 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(05-03-2016 03:31 PM)edbaldwin Wrote:  I'm not an expert on vegan lifestyle but a vegan I used to work with explained to me that animals should not have to work for humans at all. It's kind of like animal slavery. The bee isn't agreeing to make your honey. Your taking their honey. Same with cows and milk.

Why should plants have to work for humans? It's kind of like plant slavery.




Your post made me wonder how humans, especially vegans, would ensure that they were working for the earth, even after death. I imagine that the ideal is that vegans' bodies are disposed of in a manner that ensures maximum nutrition for the plant-based ecosystem that has fed them.

So would the outcome of this be that one can't be considered authentically vegan unless one has a will that disposes of the vegan's body in the most ecologically responsible fashion?
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05-03-2016, 07:38 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 10:02 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  I'm an atheist vegan and I'm also a medical student. The way I see it is that YES animals/animal products contain nutrients that humans need to function properly (primarily vitamin b12, which is not commonly found in plants), so our consumption of other animals is understandable in that sense--BUT we also have access to (vitamin) supplements that make the consumption of animals/animal products UNNECESSARY. So, why would any person willfully and knowingly advocate for the suffering, torture, and death of another living being when it isn't necessary for our physiology to function properly due to the availability of supplementation?--and in fact provides us with better health benefits without the increased risks of things like heart disease and other issues associated with animal/animal product ingestion (etc.)? I think it's morally incorrect to make another living being suffer and die unnecessarily for the fleeting experience of tasting its flesh.

It's not like god 'put them here' for us to mistreat or lord over--they're just another species that shares our planet and I don't think we have the right to abuse them anymore than we have to right to abuse a member of our own species. Pain is pain, fear is fear, suffering is suffering. I wish more people, and in particular free thinkers, would see the logic behind this moral stance--not that it wouldn't be great if religious people decided to stop eating animals/animal products too. Does this make sense to you guys? Correct me if my stance is flawed, please, but I sincerely think that's the best stance on this issue.

A couple of questions:
Does a coyote have the right to abuse a rabbit by chasing it and killing it and eating it.
Don't you realize that humans evolved eating animals?
Do you really believe that a mess of chemicals put into a bottle is as "good for you" as getting the nutrients naturally?
Have you ever known a healthy vegetarian? Most of my family is such and they are a very sickly bunch. My sister, a vegetarian from the age of 17, died of colon cancer at the age of 65. I have never known a healthy vegetarian.
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05-03-2016, 07:39 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(05-03-2016 05:49 PM)julep Wrote:  
(05-03-2016 03:50 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Why should plants have to work for humans? It's kind of like plant slavery.




Your post made me wonder how humans, especially vegans, would ensure that they were working for the earth, even after death. I imagine that the ideal is that vegans' bodies are disposed of in a manner that ensures maximum nutrition for the plant-based ecosystem that has fed them.

So would the outcome of this be that one can't be considered authentically vegan unless one has a will that disposes of the vegan's body in the most ecologically responsible fashion?

Heatheness brought that up in another thread, about being buried in an orchard. That would fill the ticket.

Who eats honey, anyway? Huh It's bee puke.
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05-03-2016, 07:45 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 10:21 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 10:06 AM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  Plants are alive. They arent like you and me of course, but abuse is abuse, another creature that shares the planet with us and everything has the right to be alive. Right?

Plants are alive, but they are not sentient. It has never been proven that plants have any type of nervous system to conduct sensations like pain. Also, it's probably important to note that there is a difference between nociception and a painful stimulus.

Nociception: the encoding and processing of harmful stimuli in the nervous system, and, therefore, the ability of a body to sense potential harm. But not necessarily indicating the perception of pain.

Pain: Pain is an unpleasant feeling that is conveyed to the brain by sensory neurons. The discomfort signals actual or potential injury to the body. However, pain is more than a sensation, or the physical awareness of pain; it also includes perception, the subjective interpretation of the discomfort. Perception gives information on the pain's location, intensity, and something about its nature. The various conscious and unconscious responses to both sensation and perception, including the emotional response, add further definition to the overall concept of pain.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tgt2erL42No

I met a guy once who would only eat food that was "Freely given." Pulling a carrot out of the ground hurts the carrot he felt, picking the apple off the tree before it falls or is ready to fall is undue violence to the apple tree, wait for the apple to be ripe and it will fall off for you. Wheat is opening and ready to be plucked when it is ready and being offered to one. Everyone ot their own superstitions!
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05-03-2016, 07:49 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(05-03-2016 07:45 PM)DerFish Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 10:21 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  Plants are alive, but they are not sentient. It has never been proven that plants have any type of nervous system to conduct sensations like pain. Also, it's probably important to note that there is a difference between nociception and a painful stimulus.

Nociception: the encoding and processing of harmful stimuli in the nervous system, and, therefore, the ability of a body to sense potential harm. But not necessarily indicating the perception of pain.

Pain: Pain is an unpleasant feeling that is conveyed to the brain by sensory neurons. The discomfort signals actual or potential injury to the body. However, pain is more than a sensation, or the physical awareness of pain; it also includes perception, the subjective interpretation of the discomfort. Perception gives information on the pain's location, intensity, and something about its nature. The various conscious and unconscious responses to both sensation and perception, including the emotional response, add further definition to the overall concept of pain.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tgt2erL42No

I met a guy once who would only eat food that was "Freely given." Pulling a carrot out of the ground hurts the carrot he felt, picking the apple off the tree before it falls or is ready to fall is undue violence to the apple tree, wait for the apple to be ripe and it will fall off for you. Wheat is opening and ready to be plucked when it is ready and being offered to one. Everyone ot their own superstitions!

Unless I can figure out how to survive on acorns I am going to be pretty hungry. And I would have to fight the damn squirrels for the acorns.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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05-03-2016, 07:58 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?


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05-03-2016, 08:00 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 12:08 PM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 10:53 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  What? How? Are you suggesting animals are some how 'Psychic'? If they don't see, smell, taste or other-wise experience any discomfort then... what?


Instantly destroying the brain of an animal pretty much does render it inert instantly.

As for 'Correct' or 'incorrect' that's a whole different thread.


Because.. you're saying that it's okay to eat plants because 'X' and yet, when I point out that

A) instantly destroying the animal's brain effectively turns them into a plant like state and

B) you're only guessing that a plant like state is 'vegetative'.

A kind of 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't." Unless you want to eat nothing BUT vitamin supplements and card-board/starch for your existence?

You are going to have to intake biological material to survive.

You saying "It's okay to eat plants but not animals because..."

I am pointing out your lines are still arbitrary and pretty much nothing more than personal.


"But the animal in question would have had the ability to perceive pain before that happened"

"What? How? Are you suggesting animals are some how 'Psychic'? If they don't see, smell, taste or other-wise experience any discomfort then... what? "


Meaning that before the act of removing the animal of any perception/sensation/awareness that animal had every ability to do all of those things before that act, unlike in plants (to the extent of our current level of study). I don't believe that that is a correct thing to do to another animal if it is unnecessary.

What makes you think that we are consistently destroying animals brains before they are slaughtered? In most instances animals are simply rendered unconscious and are killed by slitting their throats so that they bleed out. Destroying a brain is different than being unconscious and being unconscious different than being in a vegetative state. I'm not certain which definition of vegetative you were using, but I don't think that you can apply the term "vegetative state" to a plant. A vegetative state is a disorder of consciousness in which patients with severe brain damage are in a state of partial arousal rather than true awareness.

Here is a list of the procedures that animals undergo before and during slaughter for future edification:
http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/X6909E/x6909e09.htm


I understand that a lifestyle is personal choice. I'm just wondering why more people don't question the harm that eating animals causes as compared to not eating them.

Doesn't vegetative state mean like a vegetable? Are you denying that a vegetable is like a vegetable? Double HUH?
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05-03-2016, 08:00 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(05-03-2016 07:38 PM)DerFish Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 10:02 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  I'm an atheist vegan and I'm also a medical student. The way I see it is that YES animals/animal products contain nutrients that humans need to function properly (primarily vitamin b12, which is not commonly found in plants), so our consumption of other animals is understandable in that sense--BUT we also have access to (vitamin) supplements that make the consumption of animals/animal products UNNECESSARY. So, why would any person willfully and knowingly advocate for the suffering, torture, and death of another living being when it isn't necessary for our physiology to function properly due to the availability of supplementation?--and in fact provides us with better health benefits without the increased risks of things like heart disease and other issues associated with animal/animal product ingestion (etc.)? I think it's morally incorrect to make another living being suffer and die unnecessarily for the fleeting experience of tasting its flesh.

It's not like god 'put them here' for us to mistreat or lord over--they're just another species that shares our planet and I don't think we have the right to abuse them anymore than we have to right to abuse a member of our own species. Pain is pain, fear is fear, suffering is suffering. I wish more people, and in particular free thinkers, would see the logic behind this moral stance--not that it wouldn't be great if religious people decided to stop eating animals/animal products too. Does this make sense to you guys? Correct me if my stance is flawed, please, but I sincerely think that's the best stance on this issue.

A couple of questions:
Does a coyote have the right to abuse a rabbit by chasing it and killing it and eating it.
Don't you realize that humans evolved eating animals?
Do you really believe that a mess of chemicals put into a bottle is as "good for you" as getting the nutrients naturally?
Have you ever known a healthy vegetarian? Most of my family is such and they are a very sickly bunch. My sister, a vegetarian from the age of 17, died of colon cancer at the age of 65. I have never known a healthy vegetarian.

I'm sorry to hear about your sister, but cancer does not discriminate between carnivores, omnivores, or herbivores. I lost my dad to cancer and he was a life long meat and potatoes type of guy.

Coyotes are carnivorous and can't go to the grocery store for vegan alternatives.

Studies have shown that some vitamins such as B12 are absorbed better by the body in supplement form.

Humans also evolved into compassionate creatures. Now some of us have the option of not eating meat thanks to modern advancements and are happy not eating meat.

I have known many healthy vegetarians/vegans. I myself am an extremely healthy vegan. As with any way of eating, people can make themselves sick if they don't take in enough nutrients. Any diet has the potential of being unhealthy. In fact the American diet as it is in its current state with fast food being so prevalent is one of the unhealthiest in the world and we have a high amount of obese people in this country to prove it.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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05-03-2016, 08:04 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(05-03-2016 07:58 PM)pablo Wrote:  


I've seen the video before. Check this out.

http://www.vice.com/read/we-asked-a-bota...l-pain-302

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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