Why aren't more atheists vegan?
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03-03-2016, 10:43 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 10:32 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 10:27 AM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  You dont get to claim moral superiority just because you end only certain kinds of life. Come back with this argument when you have food that was never alive in any state.

The only statement I'm making is that being vegan causes less harm to sentient beings as compared to not being vegan.

I was not aware that animals are considered sentient in the same way that people are. Yes, animals feel pain and some emotion, but it was my understanding that to be sentient meant actual thought and self awareness.

In any case, you are entirely right to make your own choices and define and exist within your own moral code. However there is no justification for projecting that code and behaviors onto others. Especially when it conflicts with basic, biological needs such as dietary intake.

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Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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03-03-2016, 10:46 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 10:36 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Your OP thread name is a non-sequitur, you might as well ask why aren't more atheists SCUBA divers.

Now that really needs explaining Dodgy

'cause I would look like a chubby seal in a wet suit.

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03-03-2016, 10:46 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
If you want to talk about sentience, you're going to have to define it.

Let's take as given that plants have no awareness. How much more awareness do cnidaria and arthropods have? Is that enough to be bothered with? How about mollusca? Fish? How about birds or mammals, within which there is an incredible variety? Which is all to say, drawing a line on a continuum is not a simple task.

Or perhaps we could consider as a hypothetical the raising of an animal without passing our threshold for 'suffering'? It's not like sheep are aware of their own mortality; what is the moral element in an instantaneous painless death at the end of a comfortable life?

Now, a good argument relates directly to energy-intensity of the net output. Efficiency of food production matters as long as there are hungry people out there.

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03-03-2016, 10:48 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 10:35 AM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  " I think it's morally incorrect to make another living being suffer and die unnecessarily for the fleeting experience of tasting its flesh. "

" I wish more people, and in particular free thinkers, would see the logic behind this moral stance

Ring any bells?

I still believe that these statements are correct. The only reason I'm asking/wishing that free thinkers would see this (or even examine) is because we claim to be a group of people that explore different types of issues and like to expand our views to include as many true things as possible, so it made sense to me that if free thinkers think about the logical train that leads to veganism then they would see the foundation it rests on in terms of ethics.

Do you honestly not see the difference between consuming a piece of lettuce and an animal?
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03-03-2016, 10:51 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 10:37 AM)Vosur Wrote:  What does atheism have to do with veganism? Consider

The two are not necessarily connected. I was simply trying to connect the 'free thinking' aspect of the atheist community to the ethical comparison between a vegan lifestyle and a non-vegan lifestyle.
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03-03-2016, 10:51 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 10:48 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 10:35 AM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  " I think it's morally incorrect to make another living being suffer and die unnecessarily for the fleeting experience of tasting its flesh. "

" I wish more people, and in particular free thinkers, would see the logic behind this moral stance

Ring any bells?

I still believe that these statements are correct. The only reason I'm asking/wishing that free thinkers would see this (or even examine) is because we claim to be a group of people that explore different types of issues and like to expand our views to include as many true things as possible, so it made sense to me that if free thinkers think about the logical train that leads to veganism then they would see the foundation it rests on in terms of ethics.

Do you honestly not see the difference between consuming a piece of lettuce and an animal?

I do. But I'm not the one spouting they are more moral because they dont eat something.

Now lots of other people have made some interesting points on here I'd like to see you address.
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03-03-2016, 10:51 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 10:46 AM)cjlr Wrote:  ------

---------
------ what is the moral element in an instantaneous painless death at the end of a comfortable life?

Now, a good argument relates directly to energy-intensity of the net output. Efficiency of food production matters as long as there are hungry people out there.

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03-03-2016, 10:53 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 10:39 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  But the animal in question would have had the ability to perceive pain before that happened--

What? How? Are you suggesting animals are some how 'Psychic'? If they don't see, smell, taste or other-wise experience any discomfort then... what?

(03-03-2016 10:39 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  Killing it quickly doesn't change the fact that you've ended a sentient beings life and just because it can't feel pain beyond that point doesn't make that act was the correct one to make.

Instantly destroying the brain of an animal pretty much does render it inert instantly.

As for 'Correct' or 'incorrect' that's a whole different thread.

(03-03-2016 10:39 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  The claim that we have "yet" to prove whether or not plants can experience pain is a valid point regarding the plants themselves, but what does that have to do with how we treat animals that we are already fairly certain of really do experience pain the way we do?

Because.. you're saying that it's okay to eat plants because 'X' and yet, when I point out that

A) instantly destroying the animal's brain effectively turns them into a plant like state and

B) you're only guessing that a plant like state is 'vegetative'.

A kind of 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't." Unless you want to eat nothing BUT vitamin supplements and card-board/starch for your existence?

You are going to have to intake biological material to survive.

You saying "It's okay to eat plants but not animals because..."

I am pointing out your lines are still arbitrary and pretty much nothing more than personal.
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03-03-2016, 10:55 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 10:51 AM)kim Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 10:46 AM)cjlr Wrote:  ------

---------
------ what is the moral element in an instantaneous painless death at the end of a comfortable life?

Now, a good argument relates directly to energy-intensity of the net output. Efficiency of food production matters as long as there are hungry people out there.

SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!! Sadcryface2


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03-03-2016, 10:56 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 10:53 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 10:39 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  But the animal in question would have had the ability to perceive pain before that happened--

What? How? Are you suggesting animals are some how 'Psychic'? If they don't see, smell, taste or other-wise experience any discomfort then... what?

(03-03-2016 10:39 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  Killing it quickly doesn't change the fact that you've ended a sentient beings life and just because it can't feel pain beyond that point doesn't make that act was the correct one to make.

Instantly destroying the brain of an animal pretty much does render it inert instantly.

As for 'Correct' or 'incorrect' that's a whole different thread.

(03-03-2016 10:39 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  The claim that we have "yet" to prove whether or not plants can experience pain is a valid point regarding the plants themselves, but what does that have to do with how we treat animals that we are already fairly certain of really do experience pain the way we do?

Because.. you're saying that it's okay to eat plants because 'X' and yet, when I point out that

A) instantly destroying the animal's brain effectively turns them into a plant like state and

B) you're only guessing that a plant like state is 'vegetative'.

A kind of 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't." Unless you want to eat nothing BUT vitamin supplements and card-board/starch for your existence?

You are going to have to intake biological material to survive.

You saying "It's okay to eat plants but not animals because..."

I am pointing out your lines are still arbitrary and pretty much nothing more than personal.

Exactly. Thank you for being good at words and stuff. Tongue Thats what I was trying to say in my dumby dumb way.
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