Why aren't more atheists vegan?
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03-03-2016, 11:12 AM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2016 11:18 AM by Peebothuhul.)
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 11:11 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 10:39 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 10:53 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Right... so... if the animals in question do not perceive any pain and are instantly rendered incapable of receiving any pain...

Then...? Consider

But the animal in question would have had the ability to perceive pain before that happened--killing it quickly doesn't change the fact that you've ended a sentient beings life and just because it can't feel pain beyond that point doesn't make that act was the correct one to make.

The claim that we have "yet" to prove whether or not plants can experience pain is a valid point regarding the plants themselves, but what does that have to do with how we treat animals that we are already fairly certain of really do experience pain the way we do?

If the animals feels neither pain nor terror, it's death is no different from the death of a plant.

That's what I was trying to point out with a later posting.
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03-03-2016, 11:28 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 10:43 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 10:32 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  The only statement I'm making is that being vegan causes less harm to sentient beings as compared to not being vegan.

I was not aware that animals are considered sentient in the same way that people are. Yes, animals feel pain and some emotion, but it was my understanding that to be sentient meant actual thought and self awareness.

In any case, you are entirely right to make your own choices and define and exist within your own moral code. However there is no justification for projecting that code and behaviors onto others. Especially when it conflicts with basic, biological needs such as dietary intake.


Here is a lovely article and paper on the animal sentience:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ani...pretending

https://web.archive.org/web/201311092304...usness.pdf

I fully agree that we should each have the right to our own choices and that we do each live under our own moral code. I was just wondering why more atheists don't try limit their harm to other animals through their diet and was expressing my own hope that they would examine the ethical logic behind going vegan. Having a wish doesn't mean I'm forcing people to eat the way I do--it's merely is an expression of a personal desire for people to think differently about something. A wish is simply to want something that cannot or probably will not happen. You have every right to eat what you want and I wouldn't try to take that for someone, but I'm just wondering why more people don't question the ethics behind eating animals when supplementation is available for the nutrients that they would have provided.
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03-03-2016, 11:31 AM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2016 11:35 AM by Peebothuhul.)
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 11:28 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  Here is a lovely article and paper on the animal sentience:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ani...pretending

https://web.archive.org/web/201311092304...usness.pdf

I fully agree that we should each have the right to our own choices and that we do each live under our own moral code. I was just wondering why more atheists don't try limit their harm to other animals through their diet and was expressing my own hope that they would examine the ethical logic behind going vegan. Having a wish doesn't mean I'm forcing people to eat the way I do--it's merely is an expression of a personal desire for people to think differently about something. A wish is simply to want something that cannot or probably will not happen. You have every right to eat what you want and I wouldn't try to take that for someone, but I'm just wondering why more people don't question the ethics behind eating animals when supplementation is available for the nutrients that they would have provided.

That's nice... but you seem to have missed my points/posts about certain things.

Good on you for your views and opinions.

I can assure yourself that, I too, have thought about what it is that I am being a part of in regards to the society in which I live.

I am also glad that I am lucky enough to live in a country and society that has a long history of good science and good animal husbandry. So, on that second note I have nothing to be worried/ashamed of.

Interacting with you in this thread has been, I hope, productive for all. Smile
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03-03-2016, 11:41 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
Why aren't more vegans fruitarians? Harvesting fruit don't hurt the tree.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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03-03-2016, 11:42 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 11:11 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 11:05 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Seriously, ma'am, how many animals do you think you've helped kill when farmers clear farmland to grow your vegetables? What makes you think you've got less blood on your hands simply because you've inserted an extra layer of processing between the killing and you?

Yes, but that argument is nonsense. Eating the animals is inserting an extra layer (trophic level), so it's a proper subset no matter how close to ideal the process is.

Fair enough. Quibbling aside, please explain how that means she has less responsibility for the deaths of animals, which I'm sure you're aware was my point.

I doubt the animals care why they're being killed. The idea that she is less guilty for not eating the animals she has helped to kill is her absurdity not mine.
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03-03-2016, 11:43 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 11:28 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 10:43 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  I was not aware that animals are considered sentient in the same way that people are. Yes, animals feel pain and some emotion, but it was my understanding that to be sentient meant actual thought and self awareness.

In any case, you are entirely right to make your own choices and define and exist within your own moral code. However there is no justification for projecting that code and behaviors onto others. Especially when it conflicts with basic, biological needs such as dietary intake.


Here is a lovely article and paper on the animal sentience:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ani...pretending

https://web.archive.org/web/201311092304...usness.pdf

I fully agree that we should each have the right to our own choices and that we do each live under our own moral code. I was just wondering why more atheists don't try limit their harm to other animals through their diet and was expressing my own hope that they would examine the ethical logic behind going vegan. Having a wish doesn't mean I'm forcing people to eat the way I do--it's merely is an expression of a personal desire for people to think differently about something. A wish is simply to want something that cannot or probably will not happen. You have every right to eat what you want and I wouldn't try to take that for someone, but I'm just wondering why more people don't question the ethics behind eating animals when supplementation is available for the nutrients that they would have provided.

But that editorial is an overreach - at best it's arguing against an opinion no one has really held for a century: that no animal besides humans has any consciousness at all.

If you do not claim that all animals (all of them, from a sponge to an elephant) have the same degree of "consciousness", then you're just back to the same continuum problem I and others have brought up?

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03-03-2016, 11:45 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 11:42 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Quibbling aside, please explain how that means she has less responsibility for the deaths of animals, which I'm sure you're aware was my point.

I doubt the animals care why they're being killed. The idea that she is less guilty for not eating the animals she has helped to kill is her absurdity not mine.

Not less responsibility for the deaths that occur, but responsibility for fewer deaths, as a biological inevitability. Which is not quite the same thing; maybe I wasn't clear enough.

Let's consider as premises that the deaths are both strictly bad and stricly necessary. The conclusion follows that they should be minimised, yes?

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03-03-2016, 11:49 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
There are lots of animals that would eat me and that's part of a natural cycle. I am an omnivore and I fit within that cycle and I eat meat. I am comfortable with my place in the cycle. I hunt and fish and I kill much of the meat my family and I eat. It is healthier than farm raised animals [it is not fed hormones or shot up with antibiotics in some feed lot] and although I could buy supplements to cover the vitamins I would miss as a vegan, I much prefer to get them naturally. I spend hours and hours practicing shooting with rifles, shotguns, and bows in order to insure that I kill game as quickly and painlessly as possible.

You may be assured that the pain that a game animal, or even a slaughterhouse animal, feels at death is far less than they would experience from a natural death. For example, a natural death for a deer is usually starvation from loss of teeth. Starvation is brutal. It may also be killed by predators and there is nothing particularly quick about most predator kills. Wolves often begin eating an animal before it is dead. Predators don't always take the weak and infirm either in fact, despite popular opinion, they often do NOT take the weak and infirm. Studies have established that mountain lions kill a disproportionate number of strong healthy deer. I love mountain lions and I have tracked them and studied them for most of my life. I've watched them kill big healthy bucks and just a few years ago, one killed a big 6 x 6 buck the day before Thanksgiving in my driveway. She bit through the deer's throat and suffocated him. It took several minutes.

Yesterday and the day before we had a bison roast. [Yes, you can still hunt bison in several states.] Tonight, we are going to have pheasant. My wife and I are very light eaters and it takes us at least two days to eat a small bison roast and a pheasant will often feed us for two days. However, this meat is much better than anything you can buy in a store and it is far better than any vegan concoction.
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03-03-2016, 11:49 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
I'm an omnivore.
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03-03-2016, 11:51 AM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 11:49 AM)Black Eagle Wrote:  However, this meat is much better than anything you can buy in a store and it is far better than any vegan concoction.

Surely that's a subjective matter of taste?

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