Why aren't more atheists vegan?
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03-03-2016, 12:29 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 10:37 AM)Vosur Wrote:  What does atheism have to do with veganism? Consider

Ironically, my most militant vegan friend thinks that Jesus was vegan and the you can't be a True Christian™ unless you are also vegan. If you think normal Christian Apologetics are bad, try wrapping your head around Christian Vegan Apologetics... Sadcryface

Anyway, I don't have an argument against the ethical position that a vegan diet and lifestyle (e.g. not wearing or using animal products or those tested on animals) reduces the suffering of sentient creatures and respect anyone who makes that choice for themselves.

However, when people start claiming that a vegan diet is the healthiest diet, that's where we part company. From what I've seen, those claims are based on a false equivalency between a diet that includes animals and animal products and a Standard Western Diet and T. Colin Campbell extrapolating the link he saw between casein and tumors in rats to ALL meat while ignoring the anti-cancer properties of whey protein.

That's just the start of it, but while it is possible for humans to survive without meat or animal products, I'm more interested in thriving and than surviving. So I freely admit that I selfishly place my own health and well-being and that of my species ahead of that of other species.

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03-03-2016, 12:32 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 10:02 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  I'm an atheist vegan and I'm also a medical student. The way I see it is that YES animals/animal products contain nutrients that humans need to function properly (primarily vitamin b12, which is not commonly found in plants), so our consumption of other animals is understandable in that sense--BUT we also have access to (vitamin) supplements that make the consumption of animals/animal products UNNECESSARY. So, why would any person willfully and knowingly advocate for the suffering, torture, and death of another living being when it isn't necessary for our physiology to function properly due to the availability of supplementation?--and in fact provides us with better health benefits without the increased risks of things like heart disease and other issues associated with animal/animal product ingestion (etc.)? I think it's morally incorrect to make another living being suffer and die unnecessarily for the fleeting experience of tasting its flesh.

It's not like god 'put them here' for us to mistreat or lord over--they're just another species that shares our planet and I don't think we have the right to abuse them anymore than we have to right to abuse a member of our own species. Pain is pain, fear is fear, suffering is suffering. I wish more people, and in particular free thinkers, would see the logic behind this moral stance--not that it wouldn't be great if religious people decided to stop eating animals/animal products too. Does this make sense to you guys? Correct me if my stance is flawed, please, but I sincerely think that's the best stance on this issue.

The only thing atheists agree on, is lack of belief in a deity. Anything else is like herding cats.

That said from our evolutionary journey we have been omnivores.

As you pointed out there are vitamins we do get though eating meats...

I just disagree popping a supplement is the answer, especially since they're not really regulated well. Lots of snake oil out there.

I also do make an effort to buy meat products that are treated humanely -- and I've stopped buying certain things. Veal for example, I no longer purchase. The veal available today is generally grain fed and allowed to walk around. But the veal from 30 years ago, was literally a milk fed, baby cow in a box and was better tasting with much more flavor. So I skip the veal.

Yes, I've actually seen animals being slaughtered (for food) and not via a video. I wasn't at all fussed by it. I do agree with hunters and The Sopranos. The animal doesn't see it coming. There's very little pain. Just a flash and nothing. We all should be so lucky.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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03-03-2016, 12:50 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 12:32 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 10:02 AM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  I'm an atheist vegan and I'm also a medical student. The way I see it is that YES animals/animal products contain nutrients that humans need to function properly (primarily vitamin b12, which is not commonly found in plants), so our consumption of other animals is understandable in that sense--BUT we also have access to (vitamin) supplements that make the consumption of animals/animal products UNNECESSARY. So, why would any person willfully and knowingly advocate for the suffering, torture, and death of another living being when it isn't necessary for our physiology to function properly due to the availability of supplementation?--and in fact provides us with better health benefits without the increased risks of things like heart disease and other issues associated with animal/animal product ingestion (etc.)? I think it's morally incorrect to make another living being suffer and die unnecessarily for the fleeting experience of tasting its flesh.

It's not like god 'put them here' for us to mistreat or lord over--they're just another species that shares our planet and I don't think we have the right to abuse them anymore than we have to right to abuse a member of our own species. Pain is pain, fear is fear, suffering is suffering. I wish more people, and in particular free thinkers, would see the logic behind this moral stance--not that it wouldn't be great if religious people decided to stop eating animals/animal products too. Does this make sense to you guys? Correct me if my stance is flawed, please, but I sincerely think that's the best stance on this issue.

The only thing atheists agree on, is lack of belief in a deity. Anything else is like herding cats.

That said from our evolutionary journey we have been omnivores.

As you pointed out there are vitamins we do get though eating meats...

I just disagree popping a supplement is the answer, especially since they're not really regulated well. Lots of snake oil out there.

I also do make an effort to buy meat products that are treated humanely -- and I've stopped buying certain things. Veal for example, I no longer purchase. The veal available today is generally grain fed and allowed to walk around. But the veal from 30 years ago, was literally a milk fed, baby cow in a box and was better tasting with much more flavor. So I skip the veal.

Yes, I've actually seen animals being slaughtered (for food) and not via a video. I wasn't at all fussed by it. I do agree with hunters and The Sopranos. The animal doesn't see it coming. There's very little pain. Just a flash and nothing. We all should be so lucky.

Well, yeah, but the transport and slaughterhouse are horrific.


Not like the farm slaughter of days gone by - those were quite humane.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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03-03-2016, 01:09 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
I love animals.

They're the perfect food delivery system.....

They keep the meat fresh till you're ready to eat it...


Big Grin

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03-03-2016, 01:13 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
Because BBQ Babies are better than lettuce. Big Grin

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03-03-2016, 01:23 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
I tried to put together a completely vegan meal, but there just wasn't enough meat on them.
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03-03-2016, 01:42 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
I really like meat. Forcing myself to avoid it would make me miserable. I'm pretty sure 99% of vegans are those kind of people who are not crazy about food and pork chops don't give them orgasms (not actual ones, eh).

Not being vegan does not mean I enjoy it when animals are killed/tortured. If there is ever any kind of fake meat that is close enough to the original, I'll change my eating habits in an instant. So far, the proposed replacements that vegans try to pass off as even healthier and yummier are laughable.

I also don't see how getting milk from a cow makes the cow suffer, unless you're talking about large scale production. Having grown up in a small agricultural town, I can tell you that small scale farming is efficient and does not require animals to suffer.

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03-03-2016, 01:45 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
Speaking for myself, only, I like meat.

I really don't care if anyone else eats grass clippings or fungus but don't try to tell me what to do.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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03-03-2016, 01:51 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
Veganism and its unintended consequences:

"Local species diversity is directly related to the efficiency with which predators prevent the monopolization of the major environmental requisites by one species". - Robert T. Paine, Food Web Complexity and Species Diversity, American Naturalist, 1966

It is well documented that removing the top predators from any ecosystem plays havoc with the complexity and speciation of that ecosystem.

Stop to think for a minute of the consequences of what would happen if humans stopped eating farmed raised cattle, hogs, poultry etc. What do you propose we do with these millions of animals? Set them free upon the landscape? They would utterly destroy the ecosystems where they would be found. Deer, rabbits, bison, moose, countless plants, ground dwelling birds of all species would lose out to these domesticated and ravenous few species.

Entire landscapes would change, wilderness would be destroyed. (Think of the white-tail deer population explosion since their predators were removed and the carnage they have wrought on the plant diversity in the Northeastern US or how feral pigs have wiped out ground dwelling bird populations on islands like Hawaii among many others).

To prevent this, existing millions of domesticated feed animals would have to be destroyed in one fell swoop (will you volunteer to deliver the coup-de-gras?)

Once permanently removed existing grazing lands along with millions of additional acres (from existing wilderness) would have to be claimed to grown plants used for food because plants have a lower caloric content than does meat.

The other option, of course, is to reduce the human population by a large percentage. Who gets to decide who lives and dies? You?

In either scenario mass slaughter, directly and indirectly, would take place.

Add to this the necessary human migration from fallow and non-producing land to "greener pastures" this veganism would necessitate. Entire populations such as the Innuit would have to leave their native lands, Mongolian herders would have to move to arable lands further south, China won't be pleased. Islanders throughout the world would die of starvation without fishing. So any and all peoples who supplement their diets with meat or fish because of geographical constraints would have to migrate or die. Wars would ensue as cultures and nationalities clash in their quest for food.

Be careful not to be myopic when you propose "solutions" without first considering the long term consequences.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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03-03-2016, 01:56 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 10:46 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 10:36 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Your OP thread name is a non-sequitur, you might as well ask why aren't more atheists SCUBA divers.

Now that really needs explaining Dodgy

'cause I would look like a chubby seal in a wet suit.

A Great White shark would find you delicious Yes

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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