Why aren't more atheists vegan?
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03-03-2016, 02:14 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2016 02:18 PM by GenesisNemesis.)
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 10:06 AM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  Plants are alive. They arent like you and me of course, but abuse is abuse, another creature that shares the planet with us and everything has the right to be alive. Right?

Plants most likely aren't sentient, so this point is incredibly weak. The main objection vegans/vegetarians have is that "killing any sentient being is wrong". Not saying I agree with that, but I don't see "plants are alive" as a good counterargument by any stretch. At best, it's highly superficial and misses the point.

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03-03-2016, 02:21 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 01:51 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  It is well documented that removing the top predators from any ecosystem plays havoc with the complexity and speciation of that ecosystem.

Stop to think for a minute of the consequences of what would happen if humans stopped eating farmed raised cattle, hogs, poultry etc. What do you propose we do with these millions of animals? Set them free upon the landscape? They would utterly destroy the ecosystems where they would be found. Deer, rabbits, bison, moose, countless plants, ground dwelling birds of all species would lose out to these domesticated and ravenous few species.

Entire landscapes would change, wilderness would be destroyed. (Think of the white-tail deer population explosion since their predators were removed and the carnage they have wrought on the plant diversity in the Northeastern US or how feral pigs have wiped out ground dwelling bird populations on islands like Hawaii among many others).

To prevent this, existing millions of domesticated feed animals would have to be destroyed in one fell swoop (will you volunteer to deliver the coup-de-gras?)

I don't think anyone but the craziest of crazies at PETA has ever advocated that.
(it's... not like OP has)

Domesticated animals are numerous, yes, but they're generally awful at competing. The strategy for selective breeding for, er, ten thousand years has been to maximize efficiency under ideal conditions and then provide those conditions. Absent them, well...

(03-03-2016 01:51 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Once permanently removed existing grazing lands along with millions of additional acres (from existing wilderness) would have to be claimed to grown plants used for food because plants have a lower caloric content than does meat.

This, though, is just false. Animals already eat plants. The net energetic pass-through of eating at higher trophic levels is strictly greater.

(03-03-2016 01:51 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  The other option, of course, is to reduce the human population by a large percentage. Who gets to decide who lives and dies? You?

Okay, now you're just getting ridiculous.

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03-03-2016, 02:29 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 02:21 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 01:51 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  It is well documented that removing the top predators from any ecosystem plays havoc with the complexity and speciation of that ecosystem.

Stop to think for a minute of the consequences of what would happen if humans stopped eating farmed raised cattle, hogs, poultry etc. What do you propose we do with these millions of animals? Set them free upon the landscape? They would utterly destroy the ecosystems where they would be found. Deer, rabbits, bison, moose, countless plants, ground dwelling birds of all species would lose out to these domesticated and ravenous few species.

Entire landscapes would change, wilderness would be destroyed. (Think of the white-tail deer population explosion since their predators were removed and the carnage they have wrought on the plant diversity in the Northeastern US or how feral pigs have wiped out ground dwelling bird populations on islands like Hawaii among many others).

To prevent this, existing millions of domesticated feed animals would have to be destroyed in one fell swoop (will you volunteer to deliver the coup-de-gras?)

I don't think anyone but the craziest of crazies at PETA has ever advocated that.
(it's... not like OP has)

Domesticated animals are numerous, yes, but they're generally awful at competing. The strategy for selective breeding for, er, ten thousand years has been to maximize efficiency under ideal conditions and then provide those conditions. Absent them, well...

(03-03-2016 01:51 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Once permanently removed existing grazing lands along with millions of additional acres (from existing wilderness) would have to be claimed to grown plants used for food because plants have a lower caloric content than does meat.

This, though, is just false. Animals already eat plants. The net energetic pass-through of eating at higher trophic levels is strictly greater.

(03-03-2016 01:51 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  The other option, of course, is to reduce the human population by a large percentage. Who gets to decide who lives and dies? You?

Okay, now you're just getting ridiculous.

I stand by my points. Read "Where the Wild Things Were" for scientific findings on what happens when bottom up ecological webs are the norm.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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03-03-2016, 02:36 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 02:14 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 10:06 AM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  Plants are alive. They arent like you and me of course, but abuse is abuse, another creature that shares the planet with us and everything has the right to be alive. Right?

Plants most likely aren't sentient, so this point is incredibly weak. The main objection vegans/vegetarians have is that "killing any sentient being is wrong". Not saying I agree with that, but I don't see "plants are alive" as a good counterargument by any stretch. At best, it's highly superficial and misses the point.

"Most likely" means that it can not be ruled out until research. We just do not recognize any type of sentience at this time.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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03-03-2016, 02:42 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 02:36 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 02:14 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  Plants most likely aren't sentient, so this point is incredibly weak. The main objection vegans/vegetarians have is that "killing any sentient being is wrong". Not saying I agree with that, but I don't see "plants are alive" as a good counterargument by any stretch. At best, it's highly superficial and misses the point.

"Most likely" means that it can not be ruled out until research. We just do not recognize any type of sentience at this time.

We recognize that many have a central nervous system, and there's nothing to suggest that they do not feel pain to some degree.

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03-03-2016, 02:45 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
No one seems to approve of predation but, like sin, it is not often that anyone succeeds in stopping it for an appreciable length of time. - Durward Allen

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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03-03-2016, 02:50 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 02:29 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I stand by my points.

Do you stand by accusing OP of endorsing global totalitarianism to the point of forced population movements and mass slaughter?

Because seriously, where did that even come from?

(03-03-2016 02:29 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  Read "Where the Wild Things Were" for scientific findings on what happens when bottom up ecological webs are the norm.

All ecology is bottom-up.

To claim that increased efficiency in food production would lead to a decrease in total food production is nonsense. Period.

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03-03-2016, 02:50 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
I don't eat a lot of meat, but that's because I don't care for meat all that much. I eat and use plenty of animal products, like dairy and wool.

I'm not a vegan for admittedly shallow reasons: 1) too time-consuming, 2) most vegan food I've tried tastes kind of yucky, and 3) vegans themselves. I don't want to be around or associated with people who moralize about diet any more than I want to be around people who moralize about religion. Even if I stopped using all animal products I would avoid calling myself a vegan.

I don't think there's any reason that atheists should be more or less likely to be vegans.
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03-03-2016, 02:59 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 10:36 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  Your OP thread name is a non-sequitur, you might as well ask why aren't more atheists SCUBA divers.

Now that really needs explaining Dodgy

Thank you for pointing out the flaw in my initial question (and I noticed you weren't the only one! Shout out to the other people who pointed it out too! Smile). I can see that my initial question of "why aren't more atheists vegan?" is very biased toward my personal experience: the two were very connected in my experience. My apologies to fellow atheists for jumping the gun on that note!

I suppose a better question might be: why aren't more people vegan? Perhaps even more specifically, why aren't more people vegan when they live in areas of the world that easily allow for it? I know that whether or not something or some act is "better" than another is subjective/relative to the person who holds that opinion, but living vegan causes less harm to animals than not living vegan and I would be interested to know why that doesn't seem to matter to people? And again, I know that caring about something or for someone is subjective as well, but I would be interested in understanding the psychology behind being resigned to causing harm when it is unnecessary to do so.
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03-03-2016, 03:00 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 12:50 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 12:32 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  The only thing atheists agree on, is lack of belief in a deity. Anything else is like herding cats.

That said from our evolutionary journey we have been omnivores.

As you pointed out there are vitamins we do get though eating meats...

I just disagree popping a supplement is the answer, especially since they're not really regulated well. Lots of snake oil out there.

I also do make an effort to buy meat products that are treated humanely -- and I've stopped buying certain things. Veal for example, I no longer purchase. The veal available today is generally grain fed and allowed to walk around. But the veal from 30 years ago, was literally a milk fed, baby cow in a box and was better tasting with much more flavor. So I skip the veal.

Yes, I've actually seen animals being slaughtered (for food) and not via a video. I wasn't at all fussed by it. I do agree with hunters and The Sopranos. The animal doesn't see it coming. There's very little pain. Just a flash and nothing. We all should be so lucky.

Well, yeah, but the transport and slaughterhouse are horrific.


Not like the farm slaughter of days gone by - those were quite humane.

That's why I don't support those.

Stark gave me the best advice. I go to the farms and ranches that supply the food. If they don't allow me in I simply don't support them, by not buying the meat products at their stores.

The butcher we currently get our beef and pork from is in the ranching business. So, the prices are good and the meats are incredible. Finding a poultry place was far harder. I send to gravitate toward kosher chicken and eggs that's free range.

We do have a close family friend who's family runs a huge slaughter facility in Colorado the transport means and shoots were all redesigned by Temple Gradin.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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