Why aren't more atheists vegan?
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03-03-2016, 03:04 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 02:59 PM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  I suppose a better question might be: why aren't more people vegan? Perhaps even more specifically, why aren't more people vegan when they live in areas of the world that easily allow for it? I know that whether or not something or some act is "better" than another is subjective/relative to the person who holds that opinion, but living vegan causes less harm to animals than not living vegan and I would be interested to know why that doesn't seem to matter to people? And again, I know that caring about something or for someone is subjective as well, but I would be interested in understanding the psychology behind being resigned to causing harm when it is unnecessary to do so.

You've already mentioned that the definition of "harm" you're using applies only to certain other classes of life.
('animals' - but without specifying/clarifying within that category)

If all else is equal, assume a normal distribution. We know that our empathy for other human beings is a varying quantity; that's a pretty trivial observation. Wouldn't it follow inevitably that the degree to which we care about 'harm' to 'animals' follows a curve, as well?

Assuming there are satisfactorily unambiguous definitions for those words as pertaining to an ethical judgement. If even those definitions are bound by innate subjective variation...

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03-03-2016, 03:30 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 12:26 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 12:08 PM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  "What? How? Are you suggesting animals are some how 'Psychic'? If they don't see, smell, taste or other-wise experience any discomfort then... what? "


Meaning that before the act of removing the animal of any perception/sensation/awareness that animal had every ability to do all of those things before that act, unlike in plants (to the extent of our current level of study). I don't believe that that is a correct thing to do to another animal if it is unnecessary.

I'm sorry, could you possibly reword this statement. I don't understand the meaning/message.

(03-03-2016 12:08 PM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  What makes you think that we are consistently destroying animals brains before they are slaughtered?

Because, in the enlightened county in which I live it is understood that this is the best way to kill an animal.

(03-03-2016 12:08 PM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  In most instances animals are simply rendered unconscious and are killed by slitting their throats so that they bleed out.

Maybe in some countries. Definitely not in most instances.

Note, if you have information to share about farming/harvesting practices etc, *nods*, please do and we can all learn. Edit: Which I see below, thank you.

(03-03-2016 12:08 PM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  Destroying a brain is different than being unconscious and being unconscious different than being in a vegetative state. I'm not certain which definition of vegetative you were using, but I don't think that you can apply the term "vegetative state" to a plant. A vegetative state is a disorder of consciousness in which patients with severe brain damage are in a state of partial arousal rather than true awareness.

I am sorry that my wording was obviously poor.

Animals, as far as I am aware, in my country are rendered brain dead as instantly as possible in most cases when it comes to the preparing them for consumption. It's as simple as that. An animal rendered completely brain dead, whether through pneumatic bolt through skull or what have you, is in a less feeling state than any plant can be.

So... the fact that the animals are rendered into a state less aware than any plant and that plant might possibly have feelings (As unlikely as this may be.) was the point I was trying to make.

You seem to have no problem with eating plants. yet, you do not wish to eat animals which have been instantly rendered into a stet with less awareness of the plants you eat.

Since, I'm pretty sure, the harvesting of a lot of plants doesn't actually 'kill' them. The plants are still very much alive as they are being consumed and, in the case of salads, not even cooked but eaten raw... like Sushi....

(03-03-2016 12:08 PM)rosieisaposie Wrote:  Here is a list of the procedures that animals undergo before and during slaughter for future edification:
http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/X6909E/x6909e09.htm

I understand that a lifestyle is personal choice. I'm just wondering why more people don't question the harm that eating animals causes as compared to not eating them.

*Nods* The information above shows that the animals are treated as well as can be and operated upon as quickly as is possible so as to be effectively instantaneous in regards to their end, hence pain free as possible.

Which is what I have been posting about all along.

Please.. what is this harm to which you are referring too?

Again, when you mention the 'Not eating of' I ask again; What do you propose be done, should every one stop eating animals, in regards to the welfare of the animals which are left?

Are we to then simply... what? Allow them to gambol in the fields? To what end? There is no releasing domestic animals into the wild. That would be a far crueler fate that that which you seem to think the abattoir would deal. Consider

I was meaning that animals have senses and can feel pain/anxiety/suffering/stress before we render them dead/whatever in slaughterhouses whereas plants don't (again, according to current data). So, I wonder what right we have to end their existence when it is unnecessary?


The slaughtering industry causes harm to animals and impact their lives in negative ways and it's driven by the consumption of the product. This is just one of MANY example in which slaughterhouses have been reprimanded for animal cruelty:
http://www.businessinsider.com/usda-shut...out-2012-8

There are sooooo many more examples of these things it's ridiculous (I really don't want to post a bunch of articles/videos for you guys, but I can if you'd like some more evidence). I'm not saying ALL slaughterhouse are like this, but a lot of them are. How can we 'regulate' this out of industry? These animals lives are not being valued because their lives are about to be ended.


As for what we would do with the animals we don't eat--I haven't the faintest idea. My stance simply supports animal welfare and causes less harm to animals. Should I have some idea of what to do with them?? I don't know. Maybe. Perhaps. Anyone have any ideas? It is an issue since we have domesticated so many animals. I can't image what the world would look like if we stopped consuming meat, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be a possibility. It could be good, but it could also be bad. I don't know.
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03-03-2016, 03:56 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
Everything on this planet consumes something live or the remains of something live.

That is a reality that a lot of us who are endowed with excess empathy have an issue with.

The real issue is not that we kill to eat - without this the whole eco system would break down. This system is quite finely tuned and has evolved for a very long time to support organisms eating other organisms. There is no escaping it unless we kill everything off and establish a virtual reality for all.

IMO you would do a whole lot better putting your energy behind bettering the life of other animals and creating laws that make the horrific situation of some of the housing situations as well as transport and slaughter humane.

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03-03-2016, 04:03 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2016 04:06 PM by I Am.)
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
I was vegan for a little over a year. The primary factor which drove me away was other vegans. I'll explain.

After I switched to a vegan diet I sought support from an online community of vegans. Many of them were helpful and supportive, but a decent minority were hateful and accusatory. I remember reading an exchange between a forum newbie and one of the awful vegans. The newbie was shamed for not switching sooner, criticised for still having non-vegan items like shoe leather, and then lectured on the evils of honey-related bee slaughter (the newbie's question expressed doubt about a honey replacement product).

I got the same sort of treatment by a different vegan "ally." I posted a recipe I was experimenting with for vegan pot roast. The recipe included Worcestershire sauce, which had been in my cupboard since my pre-vegan days. Unbeknownst to me at the time, that sauce includes anchovy extract. A responder basically questioned my worth as a human being and accused me of supporting all kinds of horrors unrelated to anchovies, because I ignorantly splashed some sauce on my wheat roast.

I decided that I no longer wanted to be vegan if it meant enduring the support of such people. I didn't want to identify myself as vegan because I didn't want to associate myself with behavior like that. I decided that a less extreme harm reduction approach would be effective and carry less terrible associations. So now I have a largely vegetarian diet which I continue to adjust... gently... away from animal products.

One great thing I did learn from that year: French fries and beer are usually a vegan meal. ;-)
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03-03-2016, 04:46 PM (This post was last modified: 03-03-2016 04:55 PM by Commonsensei.)
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
For starts I stand as a pro-choice when it comes to veganism. I wouldn't live that way, but you have every right to do what you want with your body.

You're also very lucky live in a time that has ample supply of veggies and cultivating technecs that allow for this alternative life style. Many parts of the world also don't have the accessibility or climates that would allow the options you have.

I to would prefer a more humanie method of killing. But in all honesty I couldn't tell the difference between at cow that was heavily medicated before being killed or slowly strangled to death while it's children watched.

And as it was said before we're omnivores. That fact that our bodies are capable of eating meat is enough for me to say it's alright. Speaking to vegetarians/vegans in the past these exsuses isn't enough. But i'm not here to force you to put or do anything you don't want to, or desire. The only thing I would ask is to back up a little.

The other day I was eating sushi with my wife and the chef their we've gotten to know a little told us he was quiting. When we asked why he said he was becoming a vegan. And didn't feel moraly right to serve the food he's against. We gave our "Sorry to see you leave. But good for you to sticking with your morals." response. But he wouldn't shut up about it. He just went on and on about all the foods he not eating anymore. How he doesn't like thinking about gutting fish.

The only thing that bothers be most about the vegan movement is that i comes off as bragging. Like they better people for choosing this path. Or that i'm morally wrong for not making the same decision. That just makes me want to have a steak even more. I a meet someone that looked healthier that was physically active and I found out on my own or maybe me asking them what their secret was, and found out it was because they gave up meat. Maybe I would try it out. But that's not what happens. Most of the time they just come off as smug, pretentious assholes.

A question I would have for Rosie. Would you be willing to eat meat as long as it didn't come from an animal?









Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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03-03-2016, 05:02 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 11:41 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Why aren't more vegans fruitarians? Harvesting fruit don't hurt the tree.

Animals die when mowing an orchard or a field.

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03-03-2016, 05:05 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
(03-03-2016 12:29 PM)Can_of_Beans Wrote:  
(03-03-2016 10:37 AM)Vosur Wrote:  What does atheism have to do with veganism? Consider

Ironically, my most militant vegan friend thinks that Jesus was vegan and the you can't be a True Christian™ unless you are also vegan. If you think normal Christian Apologetics are bad, try wrapping your head around Christian Vegan Apologetics... Sadcryface

Anyway, I don't have an argument against the ethical position that a vegan diet and lifestyle (e.g. not wearing or using animal products or those tested on animals) reduces the suffering of sentient creatures and respect anyone who makes that choice for themselves.

However, when people start claiming that a vegan diet is the healthiest diet, that's where we part company. From what I've seen, those claims are based on a false equivalency between a diet that includes animals and animal products and a Standard Western Diet and T. Colin Campbell extrapolating the link he saw between casein and tumors in rats to ALL meat while ignoring the anti-cancer properties of whey protein.

That's just the start of it, but while it is possible for humans to survive without meat or animal products, I'm more interested in thriving and than surviving. So I freely admit that I selfishly place my own health and well-being and that of my species ahead of that of other species.

Yabut, loaves and fishes. Consider

Fishes. Facepalm

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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03-03-2016, 05:07 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
Generally, I get along with almost anyone on this planet, even when we don't agree about things, provided they're not trying to harm me or others.

That said, I loathe vegan activists. Want to choose your own diet? One that excludes all animal products? Great! Want to lobby for more-humane methods of raising, transporting, and slaughtering the animals we eat? I'm glad to help! But that's rarely the context in which we find the word Vegan.

Sadly, I have yet to meet a Vegan in real life who didn't spend most of their time on what they consider a moral crusade, and whom I did not have the impulse to slowly "strangle to death while their children watched", as Commonsensei put it. Probably, that's because the decent-human-being versions aren't proselytizing it. But I've been attacked verbally by them, in front of all my guests in my own home, twice, for drinking chocolate milk in my own kitchen during a party.

It's actually rather amusing to watch the similarities between the vegan argument and the anti-choice crowd's argument, while trying to decide which group's members I'd prefer to spit upon. The only way I'll ever learn to tolerate Vegan activists is if they volunteer to replace the animals they're defending... "a Vegan burger" should literally mean it's made out of Vegans. Can you bring that up at your next "We Are Morally Superior to Everyone" meeting?

The sad thing is, there are many excellent arguments on the side of trying to include a much higher proportion of non-meats in our diets, from an ecological point of view, now that there are 7.4 billion mouths to feed, and these kind of moralist assholes all but ensure that I can't even stomach the idea of trying to talk about those issues with people lest I be associated with those activists. Ugh.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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03-03-2016, 05:07 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
You have to be Grade A retarded to be a vegan.
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03-03-2016, 05:11 PM
RE: Why aren't more atheists vegan?
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