Why be smug and condescending? Turning people off to your beliefs
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24-04-2014, 11:51 AM
RE: Why be smug and condescending? Turning people off to your beliefs
I hear what you are saying but you must remember that many of us have suffered greatly at the hand of the well-meaning religious starting with our own families.

It is sometimes very difficult to keep in check all the bottled up anger and I know I project this unto theist that come to this forum to argue and convince...my calm deamenor regarding religion is but a paper-thin veneer. Wink

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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24-04-2014, 11:54 AM
RE: Why be smug and condescending? Turning people off to your beliefs
Maybe you should read through some of the conversations with Drich, Fr0d0, Alpha Male, Rev777, the Miss Meng sock puppet, and other theists whose smug condescension is directly in line with exactly what you're describing here.

I've only been here a short time, yet in that time I've seen the same ontological arguments, the same disinformation and strawmanned arguments from design that were debunked 20 years ago, copy pasta from AiG and WLC, not just a few times, but over and over and over and over again: presented as if it were new information, that none of us had ever encountered before, peppered with Bible verses and a huge helping of self-righteous gravy.

There are theist posters who will claim, over and over again, that their beliefs are rational, based on good evidence. When pressed, they either change the subject, quote a bible verse, claim non-theists are simply too stupid to interpret the evidence as evidence, or claim it is non-transferable.

They make claims they cannot support, then pretend they've already supported the claims, or that they are self evident, or do not require explanation.

If none of this is accepted, they simply reboot the argument they started with, rinse and repeat.

You're not looking at the average interaction of an atheist and a theist on here. Some of these people have been posting for 5 years, using the same tactics, the same arguments, and the same debunked claims ("there are no transitional forms," "abiogenesis isn't possible," "atheism is a religion and Dawkins and Darwin are your unquestionable leaders," "scientists reject evolution," "evolution is a scientific conspiracy,") ad nauseum.

If you frequented a coffee shop, and the same guy came in, day after day, preaching about the evil, sinful nature of coffee and caffeine, claimed it caused cancer, birth defects, hepatitis, and that everyone in the shop would die within a week, how would you react?

What if after calmly debunking his claims, the same guy, telling him he was welcome to have a cup of decaf tea and air his views as long as he promised to stop slapping the patrons, spitting in their coffee, and screaming in their faces.

He agrees, yet the next day, he comes back and continues the same behavior. You have the same discussion, he agrees, the next day: same result. Yet for some reason, the owners won't tell him not to come back. This goes on for five years.

Do you greet the guy with open arms every time he enters the coffee shop, listen to his views, and engage him in a rational debate?

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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24-04-2014, 11:56 AM
RE: Why be smug and condescending? Turning people off to your beliefs
(24-04-2014 11:51 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  I hear what you are saying but you must remember that many of us have suffered greatly at the hand of the well-meaning religious starting with our own families.

It is sometimes very difficult to keep in check all the bottled up anger and I know I project this unto theist that come to this forum to argue and convince...my calm deamenor regarding religion is but a paper-thin veneer. Wink

This.

I only maintain that veneer because I've been on the other side and I know what it's like to be woefully ignorant. I can remember using many of the same arguments that people bring to the table here due to that ignorance. I remember, very fondly now, some of the early debates I had with an atheist who was polite to me and took the time to point out my fallacies and inaccuracies. Had he been a dickhead to me, I may have continued in my false assumption that ALL atheists were like that. This would have either prevented, or greatly delayed my apostasy.

I want to give people the benefit of the doubt, but once they remove all doubt about their willingness to learn, it's game on. Fuck them, fuck their beliefs, and fuck their stupid arguments. I'm not going to waste my time trying to lead a horse to water when the horse has made up their mind that the water is poison.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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24-04-2014, 11:58 AM
RE: Why be smug and condescending? Turning people off to your beliefs
To quote I'm_Ryan's signature:

Hey Atheists!
If God doesn't exist; then how has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
Christians: 1
Atheists: 0

That's why.
His signature sums up theist's that come here in an absolute nutshell.
Arrogant, ignorant, condescending, parasitical wastes of space not good enough to even lick the chewing gum off the bottom of my shoe.
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24-04-2014, 12:08 PM
RE: Why be smug and condescending? Turning people off to your beliefs
(24-04-2014 11:54 AM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  If you frequented a coffee shop, and the same guy came in, day after day, preaching about the evil, sinful nature of coffee and caffeine, claimed it caused cancer, birth defects, hepatitis, and that everyone in the shop would die within a week, how would you react?

What if after calmly debunking his claims, the same guy, telling him he was welcome to have a cup of decaf tea and air his views as long as he promised to stop slapping the patrons, spitting in their coffee, and screaming in their faces.

He agrees, yet the next day, he comes back and continues the same behavior. You have the same discussion, he agrees, the next day: same result. Yet for some reason, the owners won't tell him not to come back. This goes on for five years.

Do you greet the guy with open arms every time he enters the coffee shop, listen to his views, and engage him in a rational debate?

And don't forget the part about how this guy passes laws that restrict when, where, and how you may use coffee, taxes that coffee, and sends people who still insist on drinking coffee to prison. Or worse.

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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24-04-2014, 12:13 PM
RE: Why be smug and condescending? Turning people off to your beliefs
(24-04-2014 12:08 PM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 11:54 AM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  If you frequented a coffee shop, and the same guy came in, day after day, preaching about the evil, sinful nature of coffee and caffeine, claimed it caused cancer, birth defects, hepatitis, and that everyone in the shop would die within a week, how would you react?

What if after calmly debunking his claims, the same guy, telling him he was welcome to have a cup of decaf tea and air his views as long as he promised to stop slapping the patrons, spitting in their coffee, and screaming in their faces.

He agrees, yet the next day, he comes back and continues the same behavior. You have the same discussion, he agrees, the next day: same result. Yet for some reason, the owners won't tell him not to come back. This goes on for five years.

Do you greet the guy with open arms every time he enters the coffee shop, listen to his views, and engage him in a rational debate?

And don't forget the part about how this guy passes laws that restrict when, where, and how you may use coffee, taxes that coffee, and sends people who still insist on drinking coffee to prison. Or worse.
Or worse? like... sends them to... Hell?

Tongue
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24-04-2014, 12:14 PM
RE: Why be smug and condescending? Turning people off to your beliefs
Sorry guys, I wasn't trying to be a dick. I also apologize if I am coming across as smug or arrogant myself. That was the furthest thing from my mind. If you can, please cut me some slack because I'm new to actively questioning my faith Smile, and I don't want to come across as abrasive myself.

Regarding other theists, I agree wholeheartedly that a lot of them can be very arrogant. I'm a member of the RCC and I've had a variety of other Christian denominations told me that my church was the whore of babylon, I'm going to hell and we are ignorant people. A hardcore fundamentalist is, IMHO, very arrogant and conceited. Zero arguments there.

Thanks to those of you who gave me the benefit of the doubt and don't think I'm trying to be a jerk. So far I see someone responding with the idea that many here have been hurt deeply by theist family and friends and that could get their defenses up. I can appreciate that. Also, I've studied engineering and got my undergraduate in an engineering field. I remember becoming exasperated with non-STEM students who did not understand science. If that's also what can drive this mindset, then I can appreciate that too and admit that I too would be guilty as charged in that realm.

Final point. I did not mean to state that ALL atheists come across as smug jerks. Far from it. I've met a lot of people on various forums who are very respectful of beliefs. I also believe that your typical theist is much more close minded and intolerant in their thinking. As others have pointed out, and I agree with, those who are the most arrogant usually are the most ignorant.
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24-04-2014, 12:25 PM
RE: Why be smug and condescending? Turning people off to your beliefs
(24-04-2014 12:14 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  Sorry guys, I wasn't trying to be a dick. I also apologize if I am coming across as smug or arrogant myself. That was the furthest thing from my mind. If you can, please cut me some slack because I'm new to actively questioning my faith Smile, and I don't want to come across as abrasive myself.

Regarding other theists, I agree wholeheartedly that a lot of them can be very arrogant. I'm a member of the RCC and I've had a variety of other Christian denominations told me that my church was the whore of babylon, I'm going to hell and we are ignorant people. A hardcore fundamentalist is, IMHO, very arrogant and conceited. Zero arguments there.

Thanks to those of you who gave me the benefit of the doubt and don't think I'm trying to be a jerk. So far I see someone responding with the idea that many here have been hurt deeply by theist family and friends and that could get their defenses up. I can appreciate that. Also, I've studied engineering and got my undergraduate in an engineering field. I remember becoming exasperated with non-STEM students who did not understand science. If that's also what can drive this mindset, then I can appreciate that too and admit that I too would be guilty as charged in that realm.

Final point. I did not mean to state that ALL atheists come across as smug jerks. Far from it. I've met a lot of people on various forums who are very respectful of beliefs. I also believe that your typical theist is much more close minded and intolerant in their thinking. As others have pointed out, and I agree with, those who are the most arrogant usually are the most ignorant.

Awwww!
Yes, many of us have been personally and deeply hurt by those in our pasts (some are being hurt by those in their present). In my case, I was hurt and this caused me to falter in my faith and begin to question.
Questioning is not a bad thing. It's neither here nor there. If a belief system is true/accurate, then that set of beliefs will stand under the questioning.

Do you mind if I link some funny Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins videos? I know, I know, that's like me asking you to start dancing with the Devil first thing, but these would only be rather profound or amusing soundbytes, and they would also show some answers to how many atheists think in a brief funny format without beating you over the head with stuff first thing.

Also, get to know us! Smile While you're doing that, do a search on previous threads so that you're not accidentally looking like many of the theists who come on here saying the same thing over and over and over and.... ok, I'll shush. I started out as a theist when I first came here. Everyone treated me very well. In case you're curious, I come from a Fundamentalist background.
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24-04-2014, 12:29 PM
RE: Why be smug and condescending? Turning people off to your beliefs
I am constructed out of solid smugness, I cannot be otherwise. Undecided

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24-04-2014, 12:31 PM
RE: Why be smug and condescending? Turning people off to your beliefs
(24-04-2014 12:25 PM)Charis Wrote:  
(24-04-2014 12:14 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  Sorry guys, I wasn't trying to be a dick. I also apologize if I am coming across as smug or arrogant myself. That was the furthest thing from my mind. If you can, please cut me some slack because I'm new to actively questioning my faith Smile, and I don't want to come across as abrasive myself.

Regarding other theists, I agree wholeheartedly that a lot of them can be very arrogant. I'm a member of the RCC and I've had a variety of other Christian denominations told me that my church was the whore of babylon, I'm going to hell and we are ignorant people. A hardcore fundamentalist is, IMHO, very arrogant and conceited. Zero arguments there.

Thanks to those of you who gave me the benefit of the doubt and don't think I'm trying to be a jerk. So far I see someone responding with the idea that many here have been hurt deeply by theist family and friends and that could get their defenses up. I can appreciate that. Also, I've studied engineering and got my undergraduate in an engineering field. I remember becoming exasperated with non-STEM students who did not understand science. If that's also what can drive this mindset, then I can appreciate that too and admit that I too would be guilty as charged in that realm.

Final point. I did not mean to state that ALL atheists come across as smug jerks. Far from it. I've met a lot of people on various forums who are very respectful of beliefs. I also believe that your typical theist is much more close minded and intolerant in their thinking. As others have pointed out, and I agree with, those who are the most arrogant usually are the most ignorant.

Awwww!
Yes, many of us have been personally and deeply hurt by those in our pasts (some are being hurt by those in their present). In my case, I was hurt and this caused me to falter in my faith and begin to question.
Questioning is not a bad thing. It's neither here nor there. If a belief system is true/accurate, then that set of beliefs will stand under the questioning.

Do you mind if I link some funny Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins videos? I know, I know, that's like me asking you to start dancing with the Devil first thing, but these would only be rather profound or amusing soundbytes, and they would also show some answers to how many atheists think in a brief funny format without beating you over the head with stuff first thing.

Also, get to know us! Smile While you're doing that, do a search on previous threads so that you're not accidentally looking like many of the theists who come on here saying the same thing over and over and over and.... ok, I'll shush. I started out as a theist when I first came here. Everyone treated me very well. In case you're curious, I come from a Fundamentalist background.

A warning about this, though. Hitches is abrasive and arrogant. I loved him dearly and still re-watch his videos, but depending on where your doubting sits, he may not be the best person to watch right off the bat. He was a "no punches pulled, nothing sacred, in your face" kind of debater. He was absolutely brilliant, though and extremely entertaining. His debates helped push me from the "agnostic" label firmly into the "atheist" label, but my doubts were already very well formed and my apostasy all but assured at that point.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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