Why believe in the supernatural?
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13-03-2014, 05:25 PM
Re: RE: Why believe in the supernatural?
(08-03-2014 07:08 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  I can try to make an argument.

We know, or believe, that the earth is billions of years old, and that we evolved, say, from fish. It's all so rational and simple. We have all this evidence and expertise.

Now, I suppose to a certain religious person, this seems wild and crazy.

Their belief in a young earth, or being made from dust/mud, is rational and simple. They have all these billions of people to agree with, and these thousands of years old institutions that "study" this and all agree (more or less). The "expertise" is undeniable.

But people become religious for many MANY reasons, and combination of reasons, and this is just only one that I can kind of understand. I think it's good enough to answer your question.

note: same argument could be made for UFOs or Sasquatch. The "evidence" is undeniable for them. There's just no "church" built around it... yet.

The jist is, it's not supernatural for them, it's just another part of reality.

Proof?

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14-03-2014, 01:44 AM
RE: Why believe in the supernatural?
(13-03-2014 05:25 PM)mynamestartswitham Wrote:  
(08-03-2014 07:08 PM)PoolBoyG Wrote:  I can try to make an argument.

We know, or believe, that the earth is billions of years old, and that we evolved, say, from fish. It's all so rational and simple. We have all this evidence and expertise.

Now, I suppose to a certain religious person, this seems wild and crazy.

Their belief in a young earth, or being made from dust/mud, is rational and simple. They have all these billions of people to agree with, and these thousands of years old institutions that "study" this and all agree (more or less). The "expertise" is undeniable.

But people become religious for many MANY reasons, and combination of reasons, and this is just only one that I can kind of understand. I think it's good enough to answer your question.

note: same argument could be made for UFOs or Sasquatch. The "evidence" is undeniable for them. There's just no "church" built around it... yet.

The jist is, it's not supernatural for them, it's just another part of reality.

Proof?

Facepalm

Irrational people do not see themselves as irrational.

The Nazis did not see themselves as immoral or unjustified.

Given the right amount of information/propaganda (regardless of whether it is true or not), just about anything can be rationalized. If someone is kept from additional information and perspectives, they can continue on believing their actions and views to be justified; because within the limits of their current knowledge they are.

To someone indoctrinated into fundamental Christianity and never taught critical thinking, to value evidence, and to actively distrust science and anything that disagrees with the Bible as the work of Satan? Within that framework, biblical creationism is the simple and logical answer. I would argue that it's nowhere near the right answer, but then again I have access to far better information.

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14-03-2014, 08:31 AM
RE: Why believe in the supernatural?
(14-03-2014 01:44 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(13-03-2014 05:25 PM)mynamestartswitham Wrote:  Proof?

Facepalm

Irrational people do not see themselves as irrational.

The Nazis did not see themselves as immoral or unjustified.

Given the right amount of information/propaganda (regardless of whether it is true or not), just about anything can be rationalized. If someone is kept from additional information and perspectives, they can continue on believing their actions and views to be justified; because within the limits of their current knowledge they are.

To someone indoctrinated into fundamental Christianity and never taught critical thinking, to value evidence, and to actively distrust science and anything that disagrees with the Bible as the work of Satan? Within that framework, biblical creationism is the simple and logical answer. I would argue that it's nowhere near the right answer, but then again I have access to far better information.

I agree for the most part with the point you're making. Except, I would say that don't believers have the same access to information as non-believers? It's one thing to acknowledge that there's a certain amount of indoctrination going on, but as adults, carrying on with silly supernatural beliefs that contradict scientific reality is what I find so mind-boggling. I think that there's a certain amount of intellectual laziness at work as well. For example, evolution deniers don't really want to learn how evolution works.
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15-03-2014, 12:08 AM
RE: Why believe in the supernatural?
(14-03-2014 08:31 AM)davidh Wrote:  
(14-03-2014 01:44 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Facepalm

Irrational people do not see themselves as irrational.

The Nazis did not see themselves as immoral or unjustified.

Given the right amount of information/propaganda (regardless of whether it is true or not), just about anything can be rationalized. If someone is kept from additional information and perspectives, they can continue on believing their actions and views to be justified; because within the limits of their current knowledge they are.

To someone indoctrinated into fundamental Christianity and never taught critical thinking, to value evidence, and to actively distrust science and anything that disagrees with the Bible as the work of Satan? Within that framework, biblical creationism is the simple and logical answer. I would argue that it's nowhere near the right answer, but then again I have access to far better information.

I agree for the most part with the point you're making. Except, I would say that don't believers have the same access to information as non-believers? It's one thing to acknowledge that there's a certain amount of indoctrination going on, but as adults, carrying on with silly supernatural beliefs that contradict scientific reality is what I find so mind-boggling. I think that there's a certain amount of intellectual laziness at work as well. For example, evolution deniers don't really want to learn how evolution works.

Just how easy do you think it is to find and internalize any information that contradicts with what you believe, when you've been indoctrinated to think that what you believe is divine truth handed down by the creator of the universe and anything that contradicts it is a lie spread by Satan to purposely deceive people and take them away from God?

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15-03-2014, 07:07 AM
RE: Why believe in the supernatural?
(08-03-2014 04:43 PM)davidh Wrote:  I sometimes find myself wondering why on earth anyone would believe in the supernatural. If you don't understanding something about the world, so what? All that means is that you don't understand; it's a mystery. Why, because you don't understand something, or can't imagine how something might work, would you conclude that supernatural forces must be at work?

I see people making that connection all the time and I just shake my head. How does saying there must be a supernatural explanation help? What's the difference between that and just making stuff up?

Of course, I know why people have supernatural beliefs. It's how you're raised, your culture, it's how the brain works, it can make you feel better, etc.. Also, I think in our society, having supernatural beliefs, particularly religious ones, is accepted as normal, even encouraged.

I guess I just think that having supernatural beliefs is so intellectually dishonest, that I just can't get past how silly they sound when uttered in public.


Why believe in the Supernatural?
It is simply more dramatic, more fun, more exciting. Period.

Or
I should says "was"..........not "Is".



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15-03-2014, 11:17 AM
RE: Why believe in the supernatural?
(10-03-2014 08:38 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  Apparently, there are those that believe that not accepting supernatural claims is a form of materialist bias. Now, how you're supposed to form that into a working world view that doesn't leave you crippled at literally every decision you make is beyond me, but I've seen it thrown around before. On this forum, no less!
Wow, you must really be butt-hurt over that thread to keep bringing it up. Cool
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15-03-2014, 12:38 PM
RE: Why believe in the supernatural?
(08-03-2014 04:43 PM)davidh Wrote:  I sometimes find myself wondering why on earth anyone would believe in the supernatural. If you don't understanding something about the world, so what? All that means is that you don't understand; it's a mystery. Why, because you don't understand something, or can't imagine how something might work, would you conclude that supernatural forces must be at work?
It's tough to meaningfully define the natural/supernatural dichotomy. IMO it's just a matter of perspective. For example, if Jesus can explain the mechanics behind raising Lazarus, then that act was natural, but just not understood yet by us.

So, in a sense, theists, new agers, etc. don't believe in the supernatural. Or you could say that science is largely a study of the supernatural, with phenomena moving into the natural realm once they're understood.
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15-03-2014, 01:34 PM (This post was last modified: 15-03-2014 01:46 PM by rampant.a.i..)
Why believe in the supernatural?
(15-03-2014 12:38 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(08-03-2014 04:43 PM)davidh Wrote:  I sometimes find myself wondering why on earth anyone would believe in the supernatural. If you don't understanding something about the world, so what? All that means is that you don't understand; it's a mystery. Why, because you don't understand something, or can't imagine how something might work, would you conclude that supernatural forces must be at work?
It's tough to meaningfully define the natural/supernatural dichotomy. IMO it's just a matter of perspective. For example, if Jesus can explain the mechanics behind raising Lazarus, then that act was natural, but just not understood yet by us.

When is Jesus coming to explain the science behind Necromancy?

(15-03-2014 12:38 PM)alpha male Wrote:  So, in a sense, theists, new agers, etc. don't believe in the supernatural. Or you could say that science is largely a study of the supernatural, with phenomena moving into the natural realm once they're understood.

Special pleading, and twisting the actual argument to make your position appear stronger. The belief in the supernatural is just that: Believing in phenomina with unnatural causes.

There's a marked difference between belief in the unverifiable and unobservable, and an interest in explaining observable phenomina previously ascribed to supernatural causes.

E.G., research showing that electromagnetic fields activate centers in the brain and cause sensory hallucinations has been strongly linked to "ghost" sightings.

Tests show the presence of EMF stimulates centers in the brain, causing the subject to feel strongly there is someone behind them. While they may be having a sense-experience, they are mistaken: They aren't experiencing the supernatural, simply previously unexplained phenomina.

Explaining unexplained is the basis of science, and re-categorizing all scientists as "paranormal investigators" because they investigate the unexplained is inaccurate.

A belief in the supernatural would assign the feeling that someone is standing behind you in an empty house with faulty wiring to a spirit presence, and stop there.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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15-03-2014, 01:42 PM
RE: Why believe in the supernatural?
(15-03-2014 01:34 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  Special pleading, and twisting the actual argument to make your position appear stronger. The belief in the supernatural is just that: Believing in phenomina with unnatural causes.

There's a marked difference between belief in the unverifiable and unobservable, and an interest in explaining observable phenomina previously ascribed to supernatural causes.

We call this "science".
If you don't know what the causes of the phenomena are, how do you know they're not natural?
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15-03-2014, 01:56 PM
Why believe in the supernatural?
(15-03-2014 01:42 PM)alpha male Wrote:  
(15-03-2014 01:34 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  Special pleading, and twisting the actual argument to make your position appear stronger. The belief in the supernatural is just that: Believing in phenomina with unnatural causes.

There's a marked difference between belief in the unverifiable and unobservable, and an interest in explaining observable phenomina previously ascribed to supernatural causes.

We call this "science".
If you don't know what the causes of the phenomena are, how do you know they're not natural?

Again, a supernatural worldview would assume the causes are unnatural, and run off the rails with a supernatural explanation.

A scientific worldview would search for the actual causes of the phenomenon.

#Supernatural is a presumptive argument from ignorance that modern scientific investigation has been chewing away at since wider adaptation beyond the restrictions of the church.

It's a choice between "I dunno, must be <Unprovable Unfalsifiable Untestable Supernatural Explanation>" and "I don't know: Let's find out."

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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