Why can't we do politics like science?
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01-03-2012, 06:46 PM
Why can't we do politics like science?
Why don't we, instead of getting a bunch of people on stage and having them yell at each other to decide who's right, treat politics like science?

If we can't agree on an economic policy, and there's no strong evidence for either side, do an experiment. Try both for a while and then decide which one works better.

I'm tired of nothing but political rhetoric. They all act like they know exactly how to fix everything, but the truth is nobody does. And as far as I can tell, there's only one way to find out which solutions do work and which solutions don't.
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01-03-2012, 07:18 PM
RE: Why can't we do politics like science?
Because only scientists are trained to build things up from fundamental principles.

Non-scientists like to keep going around in circles. Big Grin
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01-03-2012, 07:27 PM
RE: Why can't we do politics like science?
I think we do politics in a evolutionary way, is great as it improves over time, is really bad because from time to time we need a global extinction to move things around

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01-03-2012, 09:04 PM
RE: Why can't we do politics like science?
(01-03-2012 06:46 PM)Ben Wrote:  Why don't we, instead of getting a bunch of people on stage and having them yell at each other to decide who's right, treat politics like science?

Because we can't agree on the premises, brother.

Breathing - it's more art than science.
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01-03-2012, 11:07 PM
RE: Why can't we do politics like science?
(01-03-2012 06:46 PM)Ben Wrote:  Why don't we, instead of getting a bunch of people on stage and having them yell at each other to decide who's right, treat politics like science?

If we can't agree on an economic policy, and there's no strong evidence for either side, do an experiment. Try both for a while and then decide which one works better.

I'm tired of nothing but political rhetoric. They all act like they know exactly how to fix everything, but the truth is nobody does. And as far as I can tell, there's only one way to find out which solutions do work and which solutions don't.

You're right. And we don't have to "try one thing" then "try another" in order to experiment... we have the whole world to observe. Will having gays in the military work? Take a look at the nations who beat us Americans to the punch and see if any of the Republican "dangers" have come true (they haven't).

There are economies that work much better than ours (such as Japan's or Germany's) but any time you suggest following their models you show yourself to be unpatriotic. I think it's just racism or jealousy. Either way, it's hard to convince the American people that we shouldn't reinvent the wheel. It's okay if we're not pioneers every time --- let's try something successful so we can leave the theorizing out of the results.

Check out this video at 3:56. It says everything I want to say but don't want to blatantly rip off.



My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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01-03-2012, 11:17 PM
RE: Why can't we do politics like science?
the problem with observing the results in other countries is that usually political decisions have different results according to the society, in Argentina we've copied a lot of european laws, and usually they don't work as well as they do over there, because we don't have the same culture, we're different hence we need different laws. the problem with trying to make politics as science is that societies don't follow a simple set of rules, their behaviour varies in time and place, and that makes the decision making processes much more difficult.
We need a Newton in sociology for something like science applies to sociology :/

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02-03-2012, 03:14 AM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2012 03:19 AM by mysticjbyrd.)
RE: Why can't we do politics like science?
(01-03-2012 11:07 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(01-03-2012 06:46 PM)Ben Wrote:  Why don't we, instead of getting a bunch of people on stage and having them yell at each other to decide who's right, treat politics like science?

If we can't agree on an economic policy, and there's no strong evidence for either side, do an experiment. Try both for a while and then decide which one works better.

I'm tired of nothing but political rhetoric. They all act like they know exactly how to fix everything, but the truth is nobody does. And as far as I can tell, there's only one way to find out which solutions do work and which solutions don't.

You're right. And we don't have to "try one thing" then "try another" in order to experiment... we have the whole world to observe. Will having gays in the military work? Take a look at the nations who beat us Americans to the punch and see if any of the Republican "dangers" have come true (they haven't).

There are economies that work much better than ours (such as Japan's or Germany's) but any time you suggest following their models you show yourself to be unpatriotic. I think it's just racism or jealousy. Either way, it's hard to convince the American people that we shouldn't reinvent the wheel. It's okay if we're not pioneers every time --- let's try something successful so we can leave the theorizing out of the results.

Check out this video at 3:56. It says everything I want to say but don't want to blatantly rip off.



Its not that they want to be pioneers, they just like the economic system as is. The rich are doing incredibly well atm, and to hell with the other 95%. So working as intended!


(01-03-2012 11:17 PM)nach_in Wrote:  the problem with observing the results in other countries is that usually political decisions have different results according to the society, in Argentina we've copied a lot of european laws, and usually they don't work as well as they do over there, because we don't have the same culture, we're different hence we need different laws. the problem with trying to make politics as science is that societies don't follow a simple set of rules, their behaviour varies in time and place, and that makes the decision making processes much more difficult.
We need a Newton in sociology for something like science applies to sociology :/

Which European laws?
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02-03-2012, 05:51 AM
RE: Why can't we do politics like science?
(02-03-2012 03:14 AM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  
(01-03-2012 11:07 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(01-03-2012 06:46 PM)Ben Wrote:  Why don't we, instead of getting a bunch of people on stage and having them yell at each other to decide who's right, treat politics like science?

If we can't agree on an economic policy, and there's no strong evidence for either side, do an experiment. Try both for a while and then decide which one works better.

I'm tired of nothing but political rhetoric. They all act like they know exactly how to fix everything, but the truth is nobody does. And as far as I can tell, there's only one way to find out which solutions do work and which solutions don't.

You're right. And we don't have to "try one thing" then "try another" in order to experiment... we have the whole world to observe. Will having gays in the military work? Take a look at the nations who beat us Americans to the punch and see if any of the Republican "dangers" have come true (they haven't).

There are economies that work much better than ours (such as Japan's or Germany's) but any time you suggest following their models you show yourself to be unpatriotic. I think it's just racism or jealousy. Either way, it's hard to convince the American people that we shouldn't reinvent the wheel. It's okay if we're not pioneers every time --- let's try something successful so we can leave the theorizing out of the results.

Check out this video at 3:56. It says everything I want to say but don't want to blatantly rip off.



Its not that they want to be pioneers, they just like the economic system as is. The rich are doing incredibly well atm, and to hell with the other 95%. So working as intended!


(01-03-2012 11:17 PM)nach_in Wrote:  the problem with observing the results in other countries is that usually political decisions have different results according to the society, in Argentina we've copied a lot of european laws, and usually they don't work as well as they do over there, because we don't have the same culture, we're different hence we need different laws. the problem with trying to make politics as science is that societies don't follow a simple set of rules, their behaviour varies in time and place, and that makes the decision making processes much more difficult.
We need a Newton in sociology for something like science applies to sociology :/

Which European laws?

Half our civil code, half our penal code (german laws), some procedural laws, our constitution is inspired by the USA constitution, almost every country in the world copies another's laws, specially when they share the same legal system (Argentina shares the continental-european system with most of Europe) but we used to do it all the time, that affected us in a bad way, now there's a trend to make our own laws, may be inspired by foreign, but changed and adapted properly to our culture

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02-03-2012, 04:18 PM
RE: Why can't we do politics like science?
(01-03-2012 11:17 PM)nach_in Wrote:  the problem with observing the results in other countries is that usually political decisions have different results according to the society, in Argentina we've copied a lot of european laws, and usually they don't work as well as they do over there, because we don't have the same culture, we're different hence we need different laws. the problem with trying to make politics as science is that societies don't follow a simple set of rules, their behaviour varies in time and place, and that makes the decision making processes much more difficult.
We need a Newton in sociology for something like science applies to sociology :/

You're observing this with a biased eye when you say things like "usually they don't work as well as they do over there"... that's ripe for confirmation bias. In a scientific experiment, you don't change a whole bunch of variables, but just one. It's hard to do that with a society, but nonetheless there are experts in this field (as you pointed out, it's a branch of sociology --- political science) and these people can weed out the factors that aren't relevant. And seriously, there has been plenty of study on what laws work politically and why they work (or why they don't).

So why don't we all adopt laws that experts say would work well? Because experts say contradictory things, perhaps due to special interests or perhaps because the evidence isn't clear and needs more time and study to develop. And even when all the experts agree (*cough* climate change *cough*) societies often won't accept changes in their best interest if those changes come with drawbacks or sacrifices.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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02-03-2012, 06:02 PM
RE: Why can't we do politics like science?
(02-03-2012 04:18 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(01-03-2012 11:17 PM)nach_in Wrote:  the problem with observing the results in other countries is that usually political decisions have different results according to the society, in Argentina we've copied a lot of european laws, and usually they don't work as well as they do over there, because we don't have the same culture, we're different hence we need different laws. the problem with trying to make politics as science is that societies don't follow a simple set of rules, their behaviour varies in time and place, and that makes the decision making processes much more difficult.
We need a Newton in sociology for something like science applies to sociology :/

You're observing this with a biased eye when you say things like "usually they don't work as well as they do over there"... that's ripe for confirmation bias. In a scientific experiment, you don't change a whole bunch of variables, but just one. It's hard to do that with a society, but nonetheless there are experts in this field (as you pointed out, it's a branch of sociology --- political science) and these people can weed out the factors that aren't relevant. And seriously, there has been plenty of study on what laws work politically and why they work (or why they don't).

So why don't we all adopt laws that experts say would work well? Because experts say contradictory things, perhaps due to special interests or perhaps because the evidence isn't clear and needs more time and study to develop. And even when all the experts agree (*cough* climate change *cough*) societies often won't accept changes in their best interest if those changes come with drawbacks or sacrifices.

I may be biased, but I don't think political science is anywhere near as to be able to weed out all the factors that affect a law, I don't think political science should be called a science in the first place, every so called social sciences are too young to be able to have a developed enough set of principles and methods to work scientifically, maybe they'll never have it.

Have you read the Foundation saga by Isaac Asimov? in that story one of the main charachters develops a technique to predict social behaviour over long lengths of time based on mathematical formulas, as interesting is for a work of fiction, I don't believe that may be possible, so every time someone says he or she is an expert I just hear "I know a lot about the subject" which is respectable but doesn't make an opinion a scientific prediction.

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