Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
12-12-2010, 03:14 PM (This post was last modified: 12-12-2010 03:19 PM by Ghost.)
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
I have three questions.

Do people think it's a bad thing to not be able to say, "that's not true?"

How many people here truly believe that they can't know and how many people think they do know and merely pay lip service to Agnosticism?

Hey, BnW.

When you identified yourself as an Agnostic, did you consider yourself an Atheist?

ON EDIT: Fourth question: If you encountered a people whose beliefs were based entirely on things that you knew were demonstrably false but their society was a model of harmony, within the group, with other groups and with the rest of the planet, what would your opinion of them and or their beliefs be?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-12-2010, 03:53 PM
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
Quote:Hey, BnW.

When you identified yourself as an Agnostic, did you consider yourself an Atheist?

No, I did not. I was probably a "closet atheist", though. I did not believe in god in any way, shape or form but I held on to the "it could be true" argument out of necessity. And, I did this for many, many years.

Quote:ON EDIT: Fourth question: If you encountered a people whose beliefs were based entirely on things that you knew were demonstrably false but their society was a model of harmony, within the group, with other groups and with the rest of the planet, what would your opinion of them and or their beliefs be?

Personally, I have no idea. I think this question is impossible to answer, too. Why are they this way? Is it because of their beliefs, in spite of their beliefs or does it have nothing to do with their beliefs? Do they repress the rights of individuals to maintain their society? I just don't know how to tackle this question as it's written.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-12-2010, 03:54 PM
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
(12-12-2010 03:00 PM)ThinkingNorseman Wrote:  
(12-12-2010 02:04 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  Norseman,

For the most part I agree with you, but I did want to touch on something. I really can't agree that we've proven all religion to be wrong. I don't think any religions out there are right, but I still can't prove that. It may be a little picky, but I think it's important to be careful using the word "proof".

OK. I´ll challenge that view.
Religions make claims to have answers. They claim that they´re texts are factual. When they claim that the earth is fixed in one place, or created in six days we can disprove that by proving how it really works and how it really happened. When we have proven that their claim are incorrect, we have proven them wrong. Since the religious all claim their texts are be divinely inspired, one such flaw (and remember, there are many more than one) proves that can not be the case. Thus, logically, all religions who make such claims have been proven wrong.

I accept your challenge! LOL

I guess what I'm getting at is that I accept the possibility (An EXTREMELEY remote possibility in my opinion) that the foundation of any given religion may be true. I absolutely agree that there is not a single religion, to my knowledge, that doesn't have many demonstrably false ideas/premises/tenets/stories. So in that case we agree. I just have to accept that there is that remote chance that maybe there's a religion that worships the "right" god. (Again, I don't believe a god exists, but prove me wrong and I'll humbly change my opinion).

I feel it only fair to be clear on something. (And I suppose it goes to answering one of ghosts questions). All this debate about the possibility that god exists, for me, is just mental excercise. It's phillosophy for me. Truth is I am confident that god does not exist. Confident enough, in fact, that I virtually accept it as fact, the same way I accept as fact that there is no teapot orbiting Pluto. It would be dishonest of me to not share this. I feel that agnosticism really is just a philisophical way of me explaining my views. In reality, I emphatically believe there is no god/sky daddy/santa clause/leprochauns/unicorns. They all fall into the same category for me. Fiction. Is this paying lip service to agnosticism? Not for me, but thats because for me, agnosticism is just not reality.













Then again, shit. What do I know. I'm just a farmer. Even the word "phillosophy" feels ludicrous rolling off my tongue!!

So many cats, so few good recipes.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-12-2010, 04:05 PM
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
(12-12-2010 03:14 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Fourth question: If you encountered a people whose beliefs were based entirely on things that you knew were demonstrably false but their society was a model of harmony, within the group, with other groups and with the rest of the planet, what would your opinion of them and or their beliefs be?

I would pity their ignorance and be envious of their society. But where would you find such a community? And what belief system would work like that?

I want to rip off your superstitions and make passionate sense to you
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-12-2010, 04:59 PM
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
(12-12-2010 03:00 PM)ThinkingNorseman Wrote:  Since the religious all claim their texts are be divinely inspired, one such flaw (and remember, there are many more than one) proves that can not be the case. Thus, logically, all religions who make such claims have been proven wrong.
The flaw depends on a particular illogical minority religious stance. It's easy to get an idiot to stand up and call them an idiot. Any attempt to examine a deity as seriously defined falls foul as accused.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-12-2010, 05:45 PM
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
(12-12-2010 04:59 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  
(12-12-2010 03:00 PM)ThinkingNorseman Wrote:  Since the religious all claim their texts are be divinely inspired, one such flaw (and remember, there are many more than one) proves that can not be the case. Thus, logically, all religions who make such claims have been proven wrong.
The flaw depends on a particular illogical minority religious stance. It's easy to get an idiot to stand up and call them an idiot. Any attempt to examine a deity as seriously defined falls foul as accused.

I'm not sure what that means but I suspect you're again trying to argue that the majority of religious people don't believe their texts are the word of god. I know you continue to hold onto this belief despite all evidence to the contrary that has been provided, including from your own sources TYVM, but your is absolutely the minority view on this.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-12-2010, 05:56 PM
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
(12-12-2010 03:14 PM)Ghost Wrote:  ON EDIT: Fourth question: If you encountered a people whose beliefs were based entirely on things that you knew were demonstrably false but their society was a model of harmony, within the group, with other groups and with the rest of the planet, what would your opinion of them and or their beliefs be?

I would disagree with them, but I wouldn't have a problem with them because they wouldn't be pushing their beliefs on others, changing the science and history curriculums in schools, waging holy wars, pushing their views through the government, indoctorinating children, creating prejudices, murdering and assaulting non-believers etc.

The only reason I am anti-religious is because of those things.

To answer the main thread, I am a strong atheist. I am so confident that there is no god that I will accept being called a hypocrite for saying "there is no god."

1. There is absolutely no proof of any god.
2. There is absolutely no evidence of any god.
3. God is provably a man-made idea.
4. The chances that a deistic god exists is also a man-made idea.
5. All testable claims made by religious people have failed to be supported by any evidence at all.
6. The only thing that prevents us from proving that god doesn't exist is the fact that you cannot prove a universal negative.

Also:

7. Tumors and seizures in the brain have be shown to be able to manifest experiences identical to religious experiences.
8. Electrical fields, both man-made and naturally occuring, have be shown to be able to manifest experiences identical to religious
experiences.
9. People can be so influenced by others that they will believe what those others do and say while ignoring their own senses.
10. Prophecies, when proven false, have the effect of stregthening the belief of it's followers, who then reschedule the prophesy and attract more people to the belief.
11. All pro-god arguements that I have ever encountered (with the exception of "You cannot prove a universal negative.") are provably false.

I am aware of the fact that it is impossible to prove a universal negative. If that is the only road-block to proving the non-existance of something, it is safe to be confident that it doesn't exist.

Anyone who says I am wrong without bringing proof or verifiable evidence to the discussion is also a hypocrite.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-12-2010, 06:51 PM
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
(12-12-2010 05:45 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(12-12-2010 04:59 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  
(12-12-2010 03:00 PM)ThinkingNorseman Wrote:  Since the religious all claim their texts are be divinely inspired, one such flaw (and remember, there are many more than one) proves that can not be the case. Thus, logically, all religions who make such claims have been proven wrong.
The flaw depends on a particular illogical minority religious stance. It's easy to get an idiot to stand up and call them an idiot. Any attempt to examine a deity as seriously defined falls foul as accused.

I'm not sure what that means but I suspect you're again trying to argue that the majority of religious people don't believe their texts are the word of god. I know you continue to hold onto this belief despite all evidence to the contrary that has been provided, including from your own sources TYVM, but your is absolutely the minority view on this.
Nothing like BnW. I've never ever argued such a thing, as it's the opposite of what I think.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-12-2010, 07:41 PM
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
It's the OPPOSITE of what you think? You spent like a week telling me that the majority view is that the bible is all allegories and metaphors and has been viewed that way for 5,000 years by almost everyone and now you're saying that you agree the majority of religious people believe the bible is really the word of god?

Really?

I think I'm getting dizzy now. I need to sit down.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-12-2010, 08:02 PM
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
Firstly, the bible isn't all allegory and metaphor. That would be a vast misrepresentation. Suffice to say, a strict literalist interpretation is unsupportable IMO, and yes, this has always been understood.

To all mainstream Xtians the bible is the word of God: ie. he inspired it. Some say inerrantly so. Myself and many others say that it's potentially errant, factoring in human intervention.

There's nothing conflicting there.

*passes the old man a chair* Wink
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: