Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
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14-12-2010, 04:35 PM
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
(14-12-2010 01:44 PM)ThinkingNorseman Wrote:  I fail to see how I have insulted you. Please correct me if you can by quoting the insult. Unless you are the kind of person that takes offense to having his views and opinions challenged.

fr0d0 has already proven that he is willing to lie about being insulted or his opponents dodging questions. There's no real point in engaging him further on this subject. He'll simply continue to maintain that you insulted him and refuse to actually show where you did so.

On another note, I missed this thread when it began. Finals week will do that to a guy. I don't know if it was pointed out yet that atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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14-12-2010, 06:09 PM (This post was last modified: 14-12-2010 06:16 PM by fr0d0.)
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
(14-12-2010 01:44 PM)ThinkingNorseman Wrote:  
(14-12-2010 01:06 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  Insults came on both sides. Do you have a problem with having your insults returned? If you do, then don't insult.
I fail to see how I have insulted you. Please correct me if you can by quoting the insult. Unless you are the kind of person that takes offense to having his views and opinions challenged.
I didn't insult you specifically, just your position. You are, apparently, the kind of person to take offence at having your views and opinions challenged!

I notice you don't provide any specifics to address.

You say there is something proven to be a lie in the bible. I'd like to know what that is, unless it's some big secret you can't divulge.
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14-12-2010, 06:29 PM
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
(14-12-2010 06:09 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  I didn't insult you specifically, just your position. You are, apparently, the kind of person to take offence at having your views and opinions challenged!

Try again, liar.

(13-12-2010 02:07 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  Carry on. Knock yourself out. I'll try to keep an eye out for you if you ever decide to join the adult world Wink

Quote:You say there is something proven to be a lie in the bible. I'd like to know what that is, unless it's some big secret you can't divulge.

The six-day account of creation. The Noachian flood. The collapse of the walls of Jericho. The story of Jonah. The parting of the Red Sea. All of these contradict the observable evidence, and some contradict the known laws of physics.

You can go on about how they're metaphors all you like, but you have absolutely no evidence that this is so.

But then, you've had this shown to you before, and you ignored it then, too. You simply refuse to answer any objections to your position. You dodge questions, lie, strawman, and attempt to redefine terms when they don't suit you.

Your position is pathetically weak.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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14-12-2010, 07:04 PM
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
I have evidence UB and I've presented it to you. If you insist on such an illogical approach then of course you're going to get 2 + 2 = 5 if that's all you want to see.

I've presented in depth studies on how exactly to interpret allegory. It can't have missed your attention that what the bible is actually about isn't literal proofs or scientific study. It beggars belief that you could submit evidence of the bible "contradicting itself" with two creation accounts, without wondering to yourself how no one spotted your startling revelation before. What was the point of having the two accounts? Let me see... could it possibly be that they were never literal accounts? Wow - wipe that from your mind! Don't let yourself be polluted by such illogical nonsense and LIES!

Pathetically weak doesn't cover it does it?

I seem to remember from our last encounter that you chose to ignore me rather than discuss anything. You're quick to call "liar" and all manner of insults, whilst at the same time refusing to discuss the issues. I guess that's the only way you get to retain some dignity.

The hard facts are my friend, you have no argument to prove your point. I know that's disappointing, but you should face it. Then we can perhaps move on.
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14-12-2010, 07:25 PM
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
So I take it that you admit now that you insulted TTN?

(14-12-2010 07:04 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  I have evidence UB and I've presented it to you.

No, you haven't.

Quote:I've presented in depth studies on how exactly to interpret allegory.

All of which start from the assumption that it is, in fact, allegory, rather than literal. You are attempting to answer the question of "how do you know that it's a metaphor?" with "the metaphor means X". That doesn't work.

Quote:It can't have missed your attention that what the bible is actually about isn't literal proofs or scientific study.

Which is irrelevant. You asked if anything in the Bible has been proven wrong. It has. Was Manhunt: The 12-Day Chase for Lincoln's Killer "about literal proofs or scientific study"? No. But if someone proved that John Wilkes Booth didn't kill Lincoln, that would prove that Manhunt was a false account. In the same way, the fact that we can prove that many of the events in the Bible did not happen proves that the Bible is false.

Quote:It beggars belief that you could submit evidence of the bible "contradicting itself" with two creation accounts

I didn't. Stop strawmanning.

Quote:without wondering to yourself how no one spotted your startling revelation before. What was the point of having the two accounts? Let me see... could it possibly be that they were never literal accounts? Wow - wipe that from your mind! Don't let yourself be polluted by such illogical nonsense and LIES!

Could it possibly be that it was spotted before, but the people who spotted it a) didn't realize that it was contradictory, b) didn't care because they were getting money/power/X out of this religion or c) would rather try to come up with flimsy post hoc explanations than admit that their holy text was obviously wrong and self-contradictory? Wow - wipe that from your mind! Don't let yourself be polluted by such illogical nonsense and LIES!

Quote:I seem to remember from our last encounter that you chose to ignore me rather than discuss anything.

Pffffffffahahahaha

Try again, liar. I did anything but ignore you. I gave up in disgust when you finally proved that you had no concept of what the word "evidence" actually means.

Quote:You're quick to call "liar" and all manner of insults

Calling you a "liar" is not an insult. It is a simple statement of fact. If I call my grandfather "fat", it isn't an insult. It's a statement of fact.

If you don't want to be called a liar, don't lie. This is not a difficult concept.

Quote:whilst at the same time refusing to discuss the issues.

I have discussed the issues. You, on the other hand, lie, insult, straw man, dodge questions, and present fallacies in order to present your illogical position, then project your failings onto your opponent.

You can keep saying whatever you want about me. I don't care. It won't change the fact that your position is wrong, and that your arguments are faulty.

Perhaps you should admit it. Then we can move on.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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14-12-2010, 07:53 PM
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
I didn't insult him.. I was attacking his position. Like I said.

Yes I have presented very thorough evidence, which you chose to completely ignore. There is no "assumption". You should check the evidence. There is detailed and very well backed up evidence.

The 'truth' of the bible never concerns scientific fact. A lot of it is based on supposed historical event, but the meaning, that which is entirely consistent, is to illustrate the nature of God. I certainly don't believe that the creation story is literal at all. It's like I think of the big bang theory... it fits with the evidence and and we can think around that. New theories emerge and we move our understanding of the big bang to fit. Several big bangs... fine.

If you're calling the bible 'false' because you don't think the world was ever completely flooded, for example, then you should re-check your perspective and try to understand what is really being said, rather than what you know can be dismissed scientifically, but stands allegorically.

That's not to say that the literal interpretation has to be dismissed. The supernatural by it's very nature lies outside the scope of science. We have no evidence of a bush which infinitely burns. We could suppose many phenomena which might naturally bring about such an event. But if it were genuinely a supernatural event then there should be no explanation.

Of course this frustrates scientific enquiry, if it didn't, like with many scientific debunks of phoney spiritualist claims, then science has proven those claims to be false.

By "you" I meant this site (regarding the creation accounts). No straw man there. Those reasons for people not spotting the differences are very unconvincing.

It's obvious to anyone reading your obsession with hurling insults. If you want to play that's fine, just expect the same back.
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14-12-2010, 08:04 PM
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
(14-12-2010 07:04 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  I've presented in depth studies on how exactly to interpret allegory.

No, you have not. What you did was present one, that's a total of one, link to support your position. And, upon reading that website, it was obvious that your interpretation was in direct contradiction to what the author actually said. I even followed up and showed you other links that demonstrate that your view is, in fact, incorrect.

It does not take a whole of of research on the web to find that biblical scholars completely disagree with your view of the bible. The absolutely do believe that the flood was literal and it really happened. They absolutely believe in the creation story.

Go back and look at the links I provided last time, which, btw, you never addressed.

You are wrong on this Fr0d0. Absolutely and completely wrong.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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15-12-2010, 02:57 AM
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
Big thanks to Unbeliever for speaking my case during my 16 hour slumber. (recovering from 14 days of night shift)
I don´t feel like this discussion is going to lead us anywhere as long as one side is just covering his ears saying "not listening, not listening!" over and over again. So I´m giving up and tuning out.
Just one last question for Fr0d0 before I go shopping for Christmas pressents: You wouldn't happen to be a member of church of England would you?

I want to rip off your superstitions and make passionate sense to you
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15-12-2010, 04:48 AM
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
It's not me putting fingers in ears Norseman. And no I'm not.

Hey BnW. You seem to be talking about something completely different. I'm talking about the book I linked an excerpt to, which you haven't commented on yet. That was my response to you that you didn't respond to. You are completely mistaken. But that seems to be just like a lot of people here > unwilling to address the question.
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15-12-2010, 06:14 AM
RE: Why choose atheism, over agnosticism?
You're kidding, right? Again, you're wrong.

If you were a British Lord, you'd be the Lord of Wrong
If you were a superhero, you'd be Wrong Man!
If you were a Spanish superhero, you'd be El Wrongo

When I've got some time later, I'll post a link to the discussion where I pulled all this apart for you.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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