Why did God make so many idiots?
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13-02-2013, 04:08 PM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2013 04:12 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(13-02-2013 07:42 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:If he creates a person who cannot detect god then why would he punish them with hell?
Romans 1 and 2 describe this perfectly. There is no one who cannot "detect" God but there are people who can deny what they detect via their free will--their free will to suppress what they know/suspect.
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. Rom 1:18-19
That's a large assertion.

How is it that we can detect god? What mechanism, organ, sense, do human beings have that allows us to know a god?

If anything the understanding of the senses, and how they operation tell us only that an external world needs to exist to be able to have an effect on them. So that we may perceive the world around us. How ever there is no god taste, touch, smell, etc

Even if there was, how could a finite mind get to know an infinite being?

Without doubt the more to perplex matters, theologians have chosen to say nothing about what their God is; they tell us what He is not. By negations and abstractions they imagine themselves composing a real and perfect being, while there can result from it but a being of human reason. A spirit has no body; an infinite being is a being which is not finite; a perfect being is a being which is not imperfect. Can any one form any real notions of such a multitude of deficiencies or absence of ideas? That which excludes all idea, can it be anything but nothingness? To pretend that the divine attributes are beyond the understanding of the human mind is to render God unfit for men. If we are assured that God is infinite, we admit that there can be nothing in common between Him and His creatures. To say that God is infinite, is to destroy Him for men, or at least render Him useless to them.

God, we are told, created men intelligent, but He did not create them omniscient: that is to say, capable of knowing all things. We conclude that He was not able to endow him with intelligence sufficient to understand the divine essence. In this case it is demonstrated that God has neither the power nor the wish to be known by men. By what right could this God become angry with beings whose own essence makes it impossible to have any idea of the divine essence? God would evidently be the most unjust and the most unaccountable of tyrants if He should punish an atheist for not knowing that which his nature made it impossible for him to know.

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13-02-2013, 04:08 PM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2013 04:13 PM by Vera.)
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(13-02-2013 04:05 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I just get skipped over, apparently.
Cut it out, KC. We all know you're the opposite of skipped, by birth. Drinking Beverage

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13-02-2013, 04:08 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
Bump

(11-02-2013 03:29 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(11-02-2013 03:21 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Okay, I'll bite. Where does the Bible say God did not give anyone free will? You said if the Bible is true, God didn't give anyone free will. I've been asking Calvinists for such a verse for years! And let's continue, where does the BIBLE say God made people capable of believing and other people unbelieving?
Let's see if our resident Calvinist (kingschosen) is able to answer your challenge.

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13-02-2013, 04:37 PM (This post was last modified: 13-02-2013 04:40 PM by kim.)
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(13-02-2013 03:59 PM)Chas Wrote:  You are over-simplifying. On purpose, I think.

Like a .... devil's advocate, maybe... sort of? Dodgy



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13-02-2013, 04:43 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(13-02-2013 04:37 PM)kim Wrote:  
(13-02-2013 03:59 PM)Chas Wrote:  You are over-simplifying. On purpose, I think.

Like a .... devil's advocate, maybe... sort of? Dodgy



______________________________
(With your help, Chas, I did manage to make my original point that night, you know.... finally. Rolleyes )


Yes, Kim, that night was good for me, too. Thumbsup

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13-02-2013, 04:51 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
The treasure of life is in the struggle, baby. Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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13-02-2013, 04:54 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(13-02-2013 04:51 PM)kim Wrote:  The treasure of life is in the struggle, baby. Wink
Yup, the one people put up when you're trying to take their treasure away from them Angel

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13-02-2013, 05:06 PM (This post was last modified: 14-02-2013 12:41 PM by kingschosen.)
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(11-02-2013 03:21 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Okay, I'll bite. Where does the Bible say God did not give anyone free will? You said if the Bible is true, God didn't give anyone free will. I've been asking Calvinists for such a verse for years! And let's continue, where does the BIBLE say God made people capable of believing and other people unbelieving?

Freewill cannot coexist with an omniscient and omnipotent God. If freewill exists, then God is subjugated to our whims and decisions and is hardly omnipotent. Even if you say that God is omniscient and therefore knows what we are going to do and predestines accordingly, that is still subjugated God to our future choice. In short, if we have freewill, then God cannot be omnipotent while being omniscient.

The Bible also states that we cannot choose God; God has to draw us to Himself.

John 6:44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 15:16
16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.


Likewise, it says that those that aren't of God cannot know God (straight from Jesus). So, those that aren't of God can never hear from or choose God unless acted upon by God.

John 8:47
47“He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”


The Bible is also clear about us being chosen by God.

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,


Christ's atonement was only meant for some.

2 Corinthians 2:13
13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.


God predestined, foreknew, and justified us for salvation.
Romans 8:28-33
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;


Now, before you throw out John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, or 2 Peter 3:9, I'll go ahead and address them.

The Greek words that are used are not an all inclusive "all". They are far from it. They are addressing either "types", "kinds", or specific "group".

ie - John 3:16
In John 3:16, the phrase "whosoever will" is not in the original language. The Greek literally reads "the believing ones". In essence, even John 3:16 limits the atonement and the purpose of the coming of Christ to only "the believing ones". These believing one, elect, are found scattered all throughout the world in every nation, tribe, and tongue.

It literally reads, "in order that all the believing ones in him" the "believing ones" is a participle that is being used as a noun to refer to a specific group of people.

Also, ‎"all" does not mean "whosoever". Furthermore, in the sentence structure "pas" is an adjective that describes the participle "believing ones" and thus describes "all" in that specific group, ie, the believing ones, not every individual that ever lived.

In the Timothy verse it is talking about "types" of men... same goes for the Peter verse.

Now, as for having no freewill:

God hardens Pharaoh's heart.

Exodus 9:12
12 And the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.


And, before you say, "But he chose to sin before God hardened his heart" read Romans 9:11-22

11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?


Pay attention to the red. There are no prerequisites for God's choice... it is all up to God. No one can do or say anything that affects God. He is sovereign and autonomous. We have no freewill to act outside of God's will. Since God's will is orchestrated by God, it is not our own; therefore, we have no freewill.

There is SO much evidence for election and the lack of freewill THROUGHOUT the entire Bible. I mean... that's basically what the OT is about (God's chosen people... God's will... God's directions...). In the NT, it is blatantly spelled out by Jesus in John, by Paul, and by other authors.

The question isn't "where is the evidence of a lack of freewill" but where is the evidence that we have freewill?

Arminian belief is very shaky and is a slap in the face to God's sovereignty.

So, please, show me where there is evidence of freewill.

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13-02-2013, 05:08 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(13-02-2013 05:06 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(11-02-2013 03:21 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Okay, I'll bite. Where does the Bible say God did not give anyone free will? You said if the Bible is true, God didn't give anyone free will. I've been asking Calvinists for such a verse for years! And let's continue, where does the BIBLE say God made people capable of believing and other people unbelieving?

Freewill cannot coexist with an omniscient and omnipotent God. If freewill exists, then God is subjugated to our whims and decisions and is hardly omnipotent. Even if you say that God is omniscient and therefore knows what we are going to do and predestines accordingly, that is still subjugated God to our future choice. In short, if we have freewill, then God cannot be omnipotent while being omniscient.

The Bible also states that we cannot choose God; God has to draw us to Himself.

John 6:44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 15:16
16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.


Likewise, it says that those that aren't of God cannot know God (straight from Jesus). So, those that aren't of God can never hear from or choose God unless acted upon by God.

John 8:47
47“He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”


The Bible is also clear about us being chosen by God.

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,


Christ's atonement was only meant for some.

2 Corinthians 2:13
13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.


God predestined, foreknew, and justified us for salvation.
Romans 8:28-33
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

Now, before you throw out John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, or 2 Peter 3:9, I'll go ahead and address them.

The Greek words that are used are not an all inclusive "all". They are far from it. They are addressing either "types", "kinds", or specific "group".

ie - John 3:16
In John 3:16, the phrase "whosoever will" is not in the original language. The Greek literally reads "the believing ones". In essence, even John 3:16 limits the atonement and the purpose of the coming of Christ to only "the believing ones". These believing one, elect, are found scattered all throughout the world in every nation, tribe, and tongue.

It literally reads, "in order that all the believing ones in him" the "believing ones" is a participle that is being used as a noun to refer to a specific group of people.

Also, ‎"all" does not mean "whosoever". Furthermore, in the sentence structure "pas" is an adjective that describes the participle "believing ones" and thus describes "all" in that specific group, ie, the believing ones, not every individual that ever lived.

In the Timothy verse it is talking about "types" of men... same goes for the Peter verse.

Now, as for having no freewill:

God hardens Pharaoh's heart.

Exodus 9:12
12 And the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.


And, before you say, "But he chose to sin before God hardened his heart" read Romans 9:11-22

11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?


Pay attention to the red. There are no prerequisites for God's choice... it is all up to God. No one can do or say anything that affects God. He is sovereign and autonomous. We have no freewill to act outside of God's will. Since God's will is orchestrated by God, it is not our own; therefore, we have no freewill.

There is SO much evidence for election and the lack of freewill THROUGHOUT the entire Bible. I mean... that's basically what the OT is about (God's chosen people... God's will... God's directions...). In the NT, it is blatantly spelled out by Jesus in John, by Paul, and by other authors.

The question isn't "where is the evidence of a lack of freewill" but where is the evidence that we have freewill?

Arminian belief is very shaky and is a slap in the face to God's sovereignty.

So, please, show me where there is evidence of freewill.


Please show me evidence that the Bible is true. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-02-2013, 05:09 PM
RE: Why did God make so many idiots?
(13-02-2013 05:06 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(11-02-2013 03:21 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Okay, I'll bite. Where does the Bible say God did not give anyone free will? You said if the Bible is true, God didn't give anyone free will. I've been asking Calvinists for such a verse for years! And let's continue, where does the BIBLE say God made people capable of believing and other people unbelieving?
is there a shorter version of this?


Freewill cannot coexist with an omniscient and omnipotent God. If freewill exists, then God is subjugated to our whims and decisions and is hardly omnipotent. Even if you say that God is omniscient and therefore knows what we are going to do and predestines accordingly, that is still subjugated God to our future choice. In short, if we have freewill, then God cannot be omnipotent while being omniscient.

The Bible also states that we cannot choose God; God has to draw us to Himself.

John 6:44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 15:16
16 You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.


Likewise, it says that those that aren't of God cannot know God (straight from Jesus). So, those that aren't of God can never hear from or choose God unless acted upon by God.

John 8:47
47“He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”


The Bible is also clear about us being chosen by God.

Ephesians 1:4-5
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,


Christ's atonement was only meant for some.

2 Corinthians 2:13
13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.


God predestined, foreknew, and justified us for salvation.
Romans 8:28-33
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

Now, before you throw out John 3:16, 1 Timothy 2:4, or 2 Peter 3:9, I'll go ahead and address them.

The Greek words that are used are not an all inclusive "all". They are far from it. They are addressing either "types", "kinds", or specific "group".

ie - John 3:16
In John 3:16, the phrase "whosoever will" is not in the original language. The Greek literally reads "the believing ones". In essence, even John 3:16 limits the atonement and the purpose of the coming of Christ to only "the believing ones". These believing one, elect, are found scattered all throughout the world in every nation, tribe, and tongue.

It literally reads, "in order that all the believing ones in him" the "believing ones" is a participle that is being used as a noun to refer to a specific group of people.

Also, ‎"all" does not mean "whosoever". Furthermore, in the sentence structure "pas" is an adjective that describes the participle "believing ones" and thus describes "all" in that specific group, ie, the believing ones, not every individual that ever lived.

In the Timothy verse it is talking about "types" of men... same goes for the Peter verse.

Now, as for having no freewill:

God hardens Pharaoh's heart.

Exodus 9:12
12 And the LORD hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.


And, before you say, "But he chose to sin before God hardened his heart" read Romans 9:11-22

11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?


Pay attention to the red. There are no prerequisites for God's choice... it is all up to God. No one can do or say anything that affects God. He is sovereign and autonomous. We have no freewill to act outside of God's will. Since God's will is orchestrated by God, it is not our own; therefore, we have no freewill.

There is SO much evidence for election and the lack of freewill THROUGHOUT the entire Bible. I mean... that's basically what the OT is about (God's chosen people... God's will... God's directions...). In the NT, it is blatantly spelled out by Jesus in John, by Paul, and by other authors.

The question isn't "where is the evidence of a lack of freewill" but where is the evidence that we have freewill?

Arminian belief is very shaky and is a slap in the face to God's sovereignty.

So, please, show me where there is evidence of freewill.

Arguing with a Christian is a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. You can be the greatest player in the world, yet the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut away triumphantly.
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